Owning Your Journey with Annika Mohlin

Annika: 00:00:00

I work with personal and professional growth.

Annika: 00:00:02

To me, that's very much connected, because I believe all leadership

Annika: 00:00:06

starts with leading yourself.

Annika: 00:00:08

So to get to know yourself, lead yourself and then Lead others and, and

Annika: 00:00:12

also the communication aspects of that.

Annika: 00:00:15

I work with private people.

Annika: 00:00:17

My next thing is I'm going to target more companies to see if I can

Annika: 00:00:20

help them to grow their leaders.

Annika: 00:00:22

And maybe to be the support that I didn't get when I was a manager first time.

Annika: 00:00:27

That was now 15, 16 years ago, just okay, you're now the manager here, go.

Annika: 00:00:32

I'm the kind of person learning by diving in at the deep end and

Annika: 00:00:36

then swimming my way from there.

Annika: 00:00:38

And that's fine, but it would have been great to get a couple of steers.

Annika: 00:00:42

Start with yourself and then you can develop from there.

Annika: 00:00:46

So many times I've been sent myself and also I see new leaders sent to classroom

Annika: 00:00:51

trainings and it's great with those trainings and you sit there and it's

Annika: 00:00:55

flip charts, it's beehives and you think and you reflect and it's fantastic.

Annika: 00:01:00

Then you get back to reality with an inbox that's heaped over with

Annika: 00:01:05

emails and things to attend to, and people in your team coming to you.

Annika: 00:01:09

Hey, do you have a couple of minutes?

Annika: 00:01:11

And hey, can I bounce this with you?

Annika: 00:01:12

And all of a sudden, everything that you got in the classroom training has just

Annika: 00:01:16

fallen off, because there hasn't been time enough to really anchor it in yourself.

Annika: 00:01:22

What does this mean for me?

Annika: 00:01:24

Now that I know all this, how do I want to transfer it into knowledge and into

Annika: 00:01:28

something meaningful to me, so that I can lead with authenticity, so that I

Annika: 00:01:34

can lead in a clear way so that I can lead in a way that makes people feel

Annika: 00:01:40

so safe that they dare to be brave.

Rob: 00:01:42

I love that.

Annika: 00:01:43

That's what I have observed.

Annika: 00:01:45

Maybe that's a little bit of missing piece and I would love

Annika: 00:01:48

to, to come in and help there more because once I got a coach myself.

Annika: 00:01:54

That's when the coins started to drop spending that time on reflection

Annika: 00:01:59

and, and thinking and all of those things that you have read and heard.

Annika: 00:02:04

These things are important, but once you get really dedicated time

Annika: 00:02:08

to work on yourself and get an accountability buddy in a coach or a

Annika: 00:02:12

mentor or something, I think that's really when the magic can happen.

Rob: 00:02:15

Training is great for giving you knowledge and

Rob: 00:02:18

sometimes giving you a framework.

Rob: 00:02:20

What we then have to do is we have to customize how that fits to us.

Annika: 00:02:24

So what does that mean to you when you lead, when you think about yourself

Annika: 00:02:28

and when you reflect on your values your drivers and your ambitions so that's

Annika: 00:02:34

one part and the other part is to adapt and practice those skills that we need.

Annika: 00:02:40

An example would be active listening.

Annika: 00:02:42

That you really listen if you say that you need a team of people that you really come

Annika: 00:02:48

in with the intent to understand what they say and not the desire of oh I'm going to

Annika: 00:02:54

give them a steer here but believing that they have the answer within themselves.

Annika: 00:03:00

Or can find it with some support of you but then you need to be prepared

Annika: 00:03:05

to take a step back and listen and have that person explore for himself

Annika: 00:03:10

and find for himself what's the right way for that person to do it.

Rob: 00:03:15

What it comes to mind is how interlinked different aspects are of that.

Rob: 00:03:19

So for example, you talked about active listening, which is a skill in itself.

Rob: 00:03:23

But in order to do that there needs to be a growth in certain qualities,

Rob: 00:03:28

like being able to be patient.

Rob: 00:03:29

Being able to Not feel the pressure to have to respond immediately.

Rob: 00:03:34

I always think of first time manager is it's suddenly a jump and the

Rob: 00:03:39

biggest jump is not necessarily communication or any of that.

Rob: 00:03:43

It's about dealing with the pressure of what you feel others expect of you.

Rob: 00:03:50

That's more of an inner journey.

Rob: 00:03:52

We can change something intellectually, we can know something and we can see,

Rob: 00:03:56

oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Rob: 00:03:57

But when we're under pressure which I think for most leaders going back,

Rob: 00:04:01

there's suddenly demand after demand they're under stress and then you

Rob: 00:04:05

resort to what your operating model is.

Annika: 00:04:07

Yeah.

Rob: 00:04:08

So unless you transfer that.

Rob: 00:04:10

intellectual knowing into an operating way of being it doesn't

Rob: 00:04:15

have any impact because you'll be able to answer a test on it.

Rob: 00:04:19

But when the real test is what happens when you're under

Rob: 00:04:23

pressure, what do you do?

Rob: 00:04:24

And if it doesn't make that change it hasn't really had any impact.

Rob: 00:04:28

So in line with learning the skills, we also need to develop the qualities.

Rob: 00:04:33

And I think I'm getting a sense of that's what you're helping people by

Rob: 00:04:37

growing personally and professionally, they are able to assimilate and use the

Rob: 00:04:42

skills under pressure when it matters.

Annika: 00:04:45

Exactly it's both the learning and then it's the action that comes with it.

Annika: 00:04:49

Practice it and then it will become a quality.

Annika: 00:04:52

You've been made aware of it, you know about it.

Annika: 00:04:55

And then you practice it.

Annika: 00:04:56

Then one day, maybe it sits there.

Annika: 00:04:58

And hopefully you'll start to see some positive results too.

Annika: 00:05:01

With yourself, but also with the people that you lead that you lead.

Annika: 00:05:05

Because if someone feels that way, trusted and empowered and you

Annika: 00:05:09

know that, okay, I've got this.

Annika: 00:05:12

I believe that then you rise to the occasion and deliver not only what's

Annika: 00:05:16

expected, but many times even more because you feel supported, you feel believed in.

Annika: 00:05:21

And then you want to give more.

Rob: 00:05:23

And when you have that early success, when you see it working, that

Rob: 00:05:26

then brings biochemically dopamine and suddenly you feel more confidence

Rob: 00:05:31

and you then build momentum because you feel you can do something.

Rob: 00:05:36

And that's when it becomes like a game.

Rob: 00:05:38

Like people love games because it perfectly gives them enough

Rob: 00:05:41

challenge that's interesting, but also enough dopamine that

Rob: 00:05:45

they stay involved in the game.

Rob: 00:05:47

And when we can do the same in learning it, that's how we really grow quickly.

Rob: 00:05:52

So I'm interested in specifically what kind of, what do you cover?

Rob: 00:05:57

Cause you have a program, don't you?

Rob: 00:05:59

Own your journey.

Annika: 00:06:00

Yes.

Rob: 00:06:01

So I'm just interested in what, and what happens in those stages.

Rob: 00:06:05

I'm interested in what you've talked about in how, yeah.

Rob: 00:06:09

What are the common lessons and qualities.

Annika: 00:06:12

So in that program, so it aims really to, to both to

Annika: 00:06:15

get insights about yourself.

Annika: 00:06:18

It focuses a lot on the self and then to get habits and to get some tools that

Annika: 00:06:22

you can use to lead yourself and stay on a positive and constructive way of

Annika: 00:06:27

being or what way of living, if you like.

Annika: 00:06:30

So what we do in the program is that we, the first piece

Annika: 00:06:33

of work is around your values.

Annika: 00:06:35

It's to discover what really matters to you.

Annika: 00:06:38

What is it that is to you so important that you would stand up and take a fight

Annika: 00:06:42

for it and put that as a good solid base.

Annika: 00:06:45

Then we come to a part which is about identifying and recognizing the

Annika: 00:06:51

voices that you have in your head.

Annika: 00:06:52

And this is not about being paranoid.

Annika: 00:06:54

It's about acknowledging that we have different voices.

Annika: 00:06:58

There are cheerleaders that say, you can do this, go on.

Annika: 00:07:01

And then there are other voices saying that who do you think you are that

Annika: 00:07:05

think that you can pull this off and shouldn't you instead be focusing on

Annika: 00:07:09

this and why on earth did you say that to her that was really stupid so like

Annika: 00:07:13

the kind of judgy and controlling sides of ourself so we work with getting to

Annika: 00:07:18

know that sort of the team that you have inside your head and finding strategies

Annika: 00:07:22

on, okay, so how can I now with this knowledge, knowing what typical voices

Annika: 00:07:26

I have, how can I work with them so that they favor me instead of harm me?

Annika: 00:07:31

So that's another part of it.

Annika: 00:07:33

The next part that comes after that, is about habits.

Annika: 00:07:36

And there we go, like basic habits for eating, sleeping, and moving.

Annika: 00:07:41

Our physical well being and our mental well being is so tightly

Annika: 00:07:46

interlinked, so that we need to have good habits in place in order to

Annika: 00:07:50

stay also in a good place mentally.

Annika: 00:07:53

So there we work with the clients, they get to identify what, what

Annika: 00:07:57

works for me, what can I do?

Annika: 00:07:59

What are some small shifts that I can take to do one thing better

Annika: 00:08:03

for eating, one thing better for sleeping, one thing better for moving.

Annika: 00:08:08

And then we work with a habit tracker to start to see the progress and and so on.

Annika: 00:08:12

So that's nice now too.

Annika: 00:08:13

I have a client now.

Annika: 00:08:15

When she brushes her teeth, she always stands on one leg.

Annika: 00:08:18

Cause that's keeps her, calm, grounded.

Annika: 00:08:21

She practiced, being there with all of her senses and can't

Annika: 00:08:24

be busy with anything else.

Annika: 00:08:25

It's a simple thing,

Rob: 00:08:27

I've heard that before.

Rob: 00:08:28

I think it was in martial arts, but it's yeah, it's, it gives you balance as well.

Annika: 00:08:32

Yeah.

Rob: 00:08:33

And coordination.

Annika: 00:08:34

Another thing that we work with is I'm quite fond of Paul Gilbert's work

Annika: 00:08:40

on the emotional systems or motivational systems, the red, the blue and the green.

Annika: 00:08:45

I don't know if you have read about it.

Annika: 00:08:46

It's a UK professor and he did this work talking about the calming system the

Annika: 00:08:52

performance system and the threat system.

Annika: 00:08:54

I think

Rob: 00:08:55

you've mentioned it before.

Annika: 00:08:56

I think so.

Annika: 00:08:57

We might have had a little bit of writing in our comments.

Rob: 00:09:00

I've got his books, one of those books that I don't think I've

Rob: 00:09:04

ever got round to going through, but I think I've got a couple of his.

Annika: 00:09:07

There's a piece in the program around that, what that is and how,

Annika: 00:09:12

Many of us, when we seek to rest, sometimes we rest still in the blue

Annika: 00:09:16

system, the performance system.

Annika: 00:09:18

We rest with our phones we go shopping, we do, and that's still,

Annika: 00:09:22

back to the, to what you said earlier on dopamine, it's still that.

Annika: 00:09:26

But what we need to do is also to be in the green system

Annika: 00:09:29

and find green activities.

Annika: 00:09:31

That helps us to soothe and calm and that can be just

Annika: 00:09:34

sitting and gazing out a window.

Annika: 00:09:36

For me, it's winter bathing, it's reading, it's doing a puzzle.

Annika: 00:09:41

It's gardening or working with flowers or something that's calming.

Annika: 00:09:46

So we talk about the importance of having that system in balance.

Rob: 00:09:49

Can you just run me through the three systems again?

Annika: 00:09:52

Yeah, so it's the threat system.

Annika: 00:09:54

It's also called the red system.

Annika: 00:09:57

It's a fight flight.

Annika: 00:09:59

So it's when we become like really threatened if, back in the day we were

Annika: 00:10:03

hunted by lions today, it can be, a deadline coming up or you have a super

Annika: 00:10:07

important presentation to a group of managers that you really dislike.

Annika: 00:10:11

And that sort of will get those hormones going.

Annika: 00:10:13

The blue system is the performance system.

Annika: 00:10:15

And that's when we feel we get rewarded.

Annika: 00:10:19

We feel appreciated, recognized taking things off a to do list,

Annika: 00:10:24

a pat on the back, you did that well but also all things related

Annika: 00:10:28

to to our phones and to yeah those dopamine releases just package job.

Annika: 00:10:33

And then the green, the calming systems or the soothing systems.

Annika: 00:10:37

That's oh, let me see if I can say those hormones in English endorphins.

Rob: 00:10:43

Endorphins.

Rob: 00:10:43

Yeah.

Annika: 00:10:44

Yeah.

Annika: 00:10:44

And oxytocin that releases when we go calm.

Rob: 00:10:48

So it's reacting, doing, and then recharging.

Annika: 00:10:51

Yeah.

Rob: 00:10:52

Yeah.

Rob: 00:10:52

Okay.

Rob: 00:10:52

Yeah.

Annika: 00:10:53

So I can send you a cheat sheet.

Rob: 00:10:55

You gave me a link.

Rob: 00:10:57

I think yeah, I remember reading them thinking it was really useful model.

Annika: 00:11:00

The reason I really like this and to bring it in was that it was a

Annika: 00:11:04

little bit of game changer for me myself, because I'm a super active person.

Annika: 00:11:08

I like to be engaged.

Annika: 00:11:10

I'm social.

Annika: 00:11:11

I like to keep busy.

Annika: 00:11:12

I have my fitness training classes and and I've always felt

Annika: 00:11:16

that, okay, but I recharge.

Annika: 00:11:17

I rest by doing things.

Annika: 00:11:19

And I think that was a little bit of trap for me.

Annika: 00:11:22

But when I caught eye on this through my coach, that was eyeopening.

Annika: 00:11:27

And I realized that, okay, yeah, I may feel that that I'm doing something else

Annika: 00:11:31

and my key, I keep my mind off, work or maybe other things that were troubling me.

Annika: 00:11:37

But I had missed then that I needed the green system things.

Annika: 00:11:41

That, that knowledge has helped me a lot.

Annika: 00:11:43

And that's why I like to pass that particular piece along

Annika: 00:11:47

as well to, to others who may feel that, that you just go.

Annika: 00:11:51

And if you don't really know, back to the knowledge again,

Annika: 00:11:54

how can you even then apply it?

Rob: 00:11:56

Was listening to something yesterday and basically the sweet

Rob: 00:12:00

spot of work is about 35 to 40 hours.

Rob: 00:12:03

More than that, you're lowering the quality.

Rob: 00:12:06

And once you get past 55 it's more of a detriment.

Rob: 00:12:09

So the difference between 55 and 70 hours, you're not adding any

Rob: 00:12:12

more, but I know, yeah, I know.

Rob: 00:12:15

I've, you get I'll get in the afternoon, especially after eating

Rob: 00:12:18

it and that'll be a slump and I know I'm not going to do productive work.

Rob: 00:12:22

And in the past I would have pushed through.

Rob: 00:12:24

Yeah.

Rob: 00:12:24

Just do something and you're there like, and it's not high quality.

Annika: 00:12:28

What made you change what happened that made you stop that pushing through?

Annika: 00:12:32

I think that's really interesting.

Rob: 00:12:33

I think.

Rob: 00:12:34

I think it more like reading and just seeing different things and

Rob: 00:12:38

the understanding that when we talk about productivity, I think we've

Rob: 00:12:41

got to look at it's the percentage of energy you have in time.

Rob: 00:12:47

So half an hour of really engaged, really high quality work is worth maybe

Rob: 00:12:54

three, four hours of really low quality.

Rob: 00:12:57

So yeah, I think, and it's just shifting that's when I'll go and do the

Rob: 00:13:01

dog walk or I'll have some downtime.

Rob: 00:13:04

Or I'll just do something that away from work and then I've had a little bit of

Rob: 00:13:09

a break and then I'm for my second wave

Annika: 00:13:12

okay.

Annika: 00:13:13

So you have split up your workday.

Annika: 00:13:15

Is that what I'm hearing in two, in sort of two, two chunks, a morning chunk and a

Rob: 00:13:19

yeah.

Rob: 00:13:19

I basically I know that when I get to later afternoon, once I've eaten then

Rob: 00:13:25

there's going to be a dip and then I'm going to wake up and then I'm going to be.

Rob: 00:13:28

I'm more of a night owl.

Rob: 00:13:29

So it's also the being able to switch off which has often been because like

Rob: 00:13:34

you keep going and you yeah, I'm really into this and I'm I don't want to stop.

Rob: 00:13:38

So I never want to go to sleep.

Rob: 00:13:40

But then that means in the morning, I never want to get up.

Rob: 00:13:42

And so I've had to get in a pattern so that same time bed, same time

Rob: 00:13:46

sleep, even if it's, even if I am doing well, because it will mess

Rob: 00:13:49

up my sleep for the next few days.

Annika: 00:13:51

Yeah but if it works, and I think, that's, just, if you keep an eye

Annika: 00:13:55

on it and it works well for you and the rest of the family, then that's great.

Annika: 00:13:59

Otherwise, you need to find some, another way of doing it.

Annika: 00:14:02

I'm also more creative in the evenings, but that's also when, people around.

Annika: 00:14:07

We have three kids teenagers, they will all be teenagers this year our son will

Annika: 00:14:11

be 13 this year and the girls 17 and 19.

Annika: 00:14:14

So the kitchen is always open and they're so hungry which is okay but they,

Annika: 00:14:19

at 9, 9 30, that first one comes and just Oh, Snack and then the other one.

Annika: 00:14:23

Oh, is there something to eat?

Rob: 00:14:25

Yeah, it's just adapting to your environment, isn't it?

Rob: 00:14:27

Something that you've said you start with values so it makes sense to And it makes

Rob: 00:14:33

me curious to understand your values So what are your values that drive you?

Annika: 00:14:38

I would say that my top four values are freedom

Annika: 00:14:42

authenticity, playfulness and trust.

Rob: 00:14:45

Okay.

Rob: 00:14:46

Freedom is one of mine as well.

Rob: 00:14:47

I think my I originally, after I came out of university was based on happiness.

Rob: 00:14:54

That's my first book.

Rob: 00:14:56

And I think happiness is really about freedom.

Rob: 00:14:58

Authenticity is another great one.

Rob: 00:15:00

I think authentic is one of those words that just becomes it's become

Rob: 00:15:04

devalued and I'm reluctant to use it often, but it's, the cliches are

Rob: 00:15:10

cliches because they're so true.

Annika: 00:15:12

Yeah it's a word that I also hear being used more and more.

Annika: 00:15:16

And I think let's take the opportunity then if it's being used more and fill it

Annika: 00:15:20

with a meaning that, that makes sense.

Annika: 00:15:23

And that is valuable which is staying true to your.

Annika: 00:15:26

true self.

Annika: 00:15:27

And then the next question is, so how would you know what is that?

Annika: 00:15:30

And that's when I think the values come in to play, knowing

Annika: 00:15:33

what really matters to you.

Annika: 00:15:35

What is really important?

Annika: 00:15:37

What really pisses you off?

Annika: 00:15:39

Because the opposite of that is likely a core value of yours.

Annika: 00:15:42

So that you can choose, that's why we work on it.

Annika: 00:15:44

So that, can choose more of that and bring it in into your life.

Annika: 00:15:50

If you would do like a value scan and say, okay, so how much of these

Annika: 00:15:54

things do I have in my life today?

Annika: 00:15:55

And maybe you want to use like a scale of 10 or something and you find, Oh,

Annika: 00:15:59

there's too little playfulness, let's say.

Annika: 00:16:01

So what can I do to to get more of that in?

Annika: 00:16:04

And then, yeah, and you fill that up and the more you're in tune with

Annika: 00:16:09

your values, the the happier you feel, the happier I feel, at least.

Rob: 00:16:12

Yeah.

Annika: 00:16:13

That's one thing I've noted for myself in these in this fitness class.

Annika: 00:16:17

training classes that I do.

Annika: 00:16:18

But playfulness is a big element there for me to be around those people, twinkle

Annika: 00:16:24

in the eye to cheer the what do you say?

Annika: 00:16:27

The trainers or the exercisers.

Annika: 00:16:30

What's the proper word there?

Rob: 00:16:31

I don't think there is one.

Rob: 00:16:32

No.

Rob: 00:16:33

Participants, but that's more like a psychological study.

Rob: 00:16:36

Yeah.

Annika: 00:16:37

The gym visitors,

Rob: 00:16:38

let's say fitness enthusiasts.

Rob: 00:16:39

Yeah.

Rob: 00:16:40

Yeah I can see those like I love models and i'm mapping out that free freedom

Rob: 00:16:46

and freedom and playfulness go together and authenticity and trust go together

Rob: 00:16:50

but what i'm looking at is you talked about you were in corporate for many

Rob: 00:16:55

years and You love the communication and you love the leadership.

Rob: 00:16:59

It would seem that meetings are in the middle because that's

Rob: 00:17:02

where you communicate as a leader.

Rob: 00:17:03

But you said that was one of the things made you unsatisfied with it.

Rob: 00:17:08

So when I look at your values, I think I can see why, because

Rob: 00:17:12

you weren't able to be authentic.

Rob: 00:17:14

You weren't able to play.

Rob: 00:17:16

And you didn't exactly say, but I'm reading between the lines that there

Rob: 00:17:20

was probably politics and things that you didn't always agree with.

Rob: 00:17:23

So there wasn't the trust and you didn't have the freedom to really be yourself.

Rob: 00:17:27

And I'm guessing that's why you're discontent with corporate world.

Annika: 00:17:31

In the end felt that, yeah, we have grown apart now.

Annika: 00:17:34

So yeah, it's a really good analysis and also a conclusion,

Annika: 00:17:38

Rob, I think that's exactly it.

Annika: 00:17:40

I felt capped.

Annika: 00:17:41

At last, because it was always so many people to go and and check things

Annika: 00:17:46

with and get a alignment and approvals from here, there and everywhere.

Annika: 00:17:51

And with a freedom, I like to move.

Annika: 00:17:53

I like to be independent.

Annika: 00:17:55

I understand that there are processes to be respected and, stakeholders to be

Annika: 00:17:59

informed and decision makers to take care of, but you can do that in a simple way.

Annika: 00:18:03

Or you can do it in a complicated way.

Annika: 00:18:06

And, yeah, the last years it just became so complicated that, it created for

Annika: 00:18:11

me a feeling to be a little bit stuck.

Rob: 00:18:13

I think many people are feeling that.

Rob: 00:18:15

I think there's a maybe a paradox or dichotomy where the organization

Rob: 00:18:20

needs certain standards and it's done them traditionally through

Rob: 00:18:24

rules and through constraints.

Rob: 00:18:26

But what those constraints do is they also tie off Someone's whole self, their

Rob: 00:18:32

ability to really be and the freedom to be themselves, to be authentic.

Rob: 00:18:37

And I think organizations are going to have to find ways to allow people to have

Rob: 00:18:43

that freedom to be themselves and yet still deliver the same standards and not.

Rob: 00:18:47

Have the kind of problems of because before there were all those standards.

Rob: 00:18:53

Like when you look at McDonald's, uniform and that's what those standards bring.

Rob: 00:18:57

But what you're limited then to is the quality of a McDonald's.

Rob: 00:19:03

You can't have.

Rob: 00:19:04

Michelin star by that process.

Annika: 00:19:06

Something to that, because something wakens

Annika: 00:19:08

up here when you say that.

Annika: 00:19:10

It limits maybe the, to be your true self.

Annika: 00:19:13

And also I think it hinders Maybe the possibility for the task as such to be

Annika: 00:19:19

carried out the best way, because let's say, you'd hire a social media specialist.

Annika: 00:19:25

That's maybe half your age coming in, being all excited and knows and navigates

Annika: 00:19:30

these landscapes like in their own pocket.

Annika: 00:19:33

As a manager, then I think you need to understand that maybe you don't understand

Annika: 00:19:37

as much and trust that person again.

Annika: 00:19:40

So there we go again with the trust and trusting that the

Annika: 00:19:42

other person has the answers.

Annika: 00:19:44

Because if you then come in and you're being hired for the talent that you

Annika: 00:19:48

have and the skill set that you have in an area, and then not being able

Annika: 00:19:52

to use it best way, because somebody in the hierarchy that's leading you.

Annika: 00:19:57

They don't trust you.

Annika: 00:19:58

So it goes too slow.

Annika: 00:19:59

And I think that's it.

Annika: 00:20:01

It's a way of killing creativity and it's a way of killing talent.

Annika: 00:20:05

If you don't trust the sort of the youngsters that come in

Annika: 00:20:09

with all of these new skills.

Rob: 00:20:11

It's also the way of killing productivity.

Rob: 00:20:14

Because there was a huge growth in productivity from

Rob: 00:20:18

the Industrial Revolution and it was because we specialized.

Rob: 00:20:22

But what that specialization did was constrained people and it didn't

Rob: 00:20:26

give them, like Adam Smith's example of the pin factory, like people

Rob: 00:20:31

just had this little bit, so they didn't have the sense of fulfillment

Rob: 00:20:34

of a complete creating anything.

Rob: 00:20:37

They just, press buttons and

Annika: 00:20:39

yeah,

Rob: 00:20:39

cut up metal or whatever they did.

Rob: 00:20:42

And since 1970, the productivity has Dramatically slowed down in its growth

Rob: 00:20:49

and technology hasn't made any impact.

Rob: 00:20:51

And I think that's because now we've moved to knowledge work.

Rob: 00:20:54

We haven't learned to specialize knowledge work.

Rob: 00:20:57

And so within the team, like everyone's doing sales, but there's going to be

Rob: 00:21:02

someone who's great at one part of sales and, or maybe sales isn't even the

Rob: 00:21:06

best example, but maybe something like marketing where someone's great with

Rob: 00:21:10

coming up with the idea and someone's great with I'm now using these contexts

Rob: 00:21:13

that I don't know enough about, but basically we need to, whatever we

Rob: 00:21:16

do, we need to separate like the part that shines for you in what you're

Rob: 00:21:21

doing, where you're authentic, where you're really enthusiastic about it.

Rob: 00:21:24

If you can do that and someone else can do the other part.

Rob: 00:21:27

And I think that's what we haven't really developed in knowledge work.

Annika: 00:21:31

It could be that.

Annika: 00:21:32

And it could also be.

Annika: 00:21:34

that we haven't really learned how to lead the specialism knowledge.

Annika: 00:21:40

How, because leading someone just doing pin work, it's the same for everybody.

Annika: 00:21:44

But how do we lead knowledge?

Annika: 00:21:46

Specialism.

Rob: 00:21:47

Yeah.

Annika: 00:21:47

Yeah, just as an additional thought to explore.

Rob: 00:21:50

I think that's very true.

Rob: 00:21:52

I think the structures and the style of leadership, when you go from where humans

Rob: 00:21:59

are resources to now, what we need is we need creativity, we need engagement,

Rob: 00:22:05

we need enthusiasm, we need ideas.

Rob: 00:22:07

We need people to be at the best of their game.

Rob: 00:22:10

And all of the things that frustrated you in corporate as being tied up,

Rob: 00:22:14

not having autonomy not being able to express yourself, needing so much

Rob: 00:22:20

approval to get anything done, all of those things are inhibiting people.

Rob: 00:22:24

We need to lead in a different style, which means that people

Rob: 00:22:27

need to be at different level.

Rob: 00:22:29

I think like the growth that you're talking about, people

Rob: 00:22:32

need to be more comfortable.

Rob: 00:22:34

They need to be they need to manage their ego more.

Rob: 00:22:37

They need to be able to.

Rob: 00:22:39

Let go of their ego.

Rob: 00:22:40

They need to be active, listening, all of those types of qualities.

Rob: 00:22:45

But also I think traditionally we've always put focus on the leader.

Rob: 00:22:51

And there is so much demanded of a leader.

Rob: 00:22:53

We're basically asking for a superhuman, we're asking, can you put your so

Rob: 00:22:58

what we're saying is in this team, the team members can, Come to work, but

Rob: 00:23:03

the leader has to be able to manage conflict and all of these things.

Rob: 00:23:07

My thesis is that we need to upgrade the team members so that they manage,

Rob: 00:23:12

because when you look at the data on communication and conflict, managers

Rob: 00:23:17

are spending a huge amount of time, even resolving conflict or trying to

Rob: 00:23:21

deal with communication blockages or.

Annika: 00:23:24

Yeah.

Annika: 00:23:24

And the time that isn't spent there is spent in meetings.

Rob: 00:23:27

If we can upskill the team members so that they manage the relationships,

Rob: 00:23:31

they manage the conflict and they manage the communication, then the

Rob: 00:23:35

lead, they have what I call the leader ready team, which is ready

Rob: 00:23:39

to be led, but also ready to lead.

Rob: 00:23:41

When you have specialists who have.

Rob: 00:23:43

knowledge that the leader might not have, they need to also have the

Rob: 00:23:47

communication skills, the ability to argue their case to the ability to deal

Rob: 00:23:51

with conflict, resolve differences so that they are able to lead their aspect.

Rob: 00:23:57

So you've got a team where you've got an overall leader who's coordinating

Rob: 00:24:00

and supporting all of these, but each element is a node in that, which

Rob: 00:24:06

is also leading their specialism.

Annika: 00:24:08

It starts with them.

Annika: 00:24:09

It's self leadership.

Annika: 00:24:11

In that is one point and another thought, then I want to try with you is it can also

Annika: 00:24:17

sit in a perspective shift of the manager?

Annika: 00:24:20

Because I think so.

Annika: 00:24:22

It's quite common that leaders, they come in as parents and the team, the children,

Annika: 00:24:27

this is transactional analysis, right?

Annika: 00:24:30

But what if you shift?

Annika: 00:24:31

So that it's two adults meeting.

Annika: 00:24:33

One is super strong at social media marketing, let's say, and then you have

Annika: 00:24:38

the leader, but you meet eye to eye.

Annika: 00:24:41

It's too, it's two adults that have gone to work that morning.

Annika: 00:24:44

It's two adults that meet and have a conversation and trust that

Annika: 00:24:49

the other one wants to do a super good job either as a specialist

Annika: 00:24:54

or as the manager for this person.

Annika: 00:24:56

I think that also shifts something when you move away from the parent perspective

Annika: 00:25:00

and just take the adult perspective.

Annika: 00:25:03

I don't know what you say.

Rob: 00:25:04

I definitely agree.

Rob: 00:25:05

I think there's two, two points to that.

Rob: 00:25:08

One is The problem of hierarchy, traditionally, we've had

Rob: 00:25:11

hierarchy because it made sense.

Rob: 00:25:13

There is a natural hierarchy.

Rob: 00:25:14

Ken Wilber talks about that.

Rob: 00:25:16

And he said there's a move to shift hierarchy, but,

Rob: 00:25:19

there's a hierarchy in nature.

Rob: 00:25:20

It naturally occurs.

Rob: 00:25:21

And so there's a hierarchy, but it's about having a flexibility of hierarchy

Rob: 00:25:26

so the leader has the hierarchy when they're coordinating, but the specialist

Rob: 00:25:31

has hierarchy over their specialism.

Rob: 00:25:33

Yeah.

Rob: 00:25:34

Yeah.

Rob: 00:25:34

And so it is definitely about it's definitely about, moving to

Rob: 00:25:38

adult, which is raising the team member, but someone has to go first.

Rob: 00:25:43

And so the leader has to have that level above of maturity emotional regulation

Rob: 00:25:49

and the ability, the big picture.

Rob: 00:25:51

But what also comes to mind there is the typically our model has often been family.

Rob: 00:25:56

We're one family, but actually that becomes dysfunctional because the basis

Rob: 00:26:01

for every organization is transactional.

Rob: 00:26:04

We join and we have to be really clear on the purpose of why we're joining.

Rob: 00:26:09

Netflix has done something because they've explicitly said we're based on a high

Rob: 00:26:13

performing team rather than a family.

Rob: 00:26:15

Yes.

Annika: 00:26:15

Yeah.

Annika: 00:26:16

I've seen that too.

Annika: 00:26:17

I think that's a metaphor.

Annika: 00:26:19

That's resonates far better with me to see it like that.

Annika: 00:26:22

You can't have all the forwards.

Annika: 00:26:24

That would not be good.

Annika: 00:26:25

Also, not only goalkeepers would also not make sense.

Annika: 00:26:29

The blend.

Rob: 00:26:29

You cover quite a wide range of, Aspects.

Rob: 00:26:33

You've been a leader, you're very interested in fitness.

Rob: 00:26:35

We've talked about your values and program that you do.

Rob: 00:26:39

If you were going to do a TED talk or write a book, what would it be about?

Annika: 00:26:43

The first thing that comes to mind is about how to make the best popcorn.

Annika: 00:26:48

But that's something else.

Annika: 00:26:49

I'm really good at making popcorn on the stove and I can talk for

Annika: 00:26:53

a long time about, what fats to use, should it be rapeseed oil or

Annika: 00:26:57

olive oil or butter and how does that affect the popcorn and so on.

Annika: 00:27:01

Maybe it wouldn't be material enough for for an entire TED talk.

Annika: 00:27:05

I realized that when I'm pitching the idea to you here now and I

Annika: 00:27:08

see you're a little bit hesitant.

Annika: 00:27:10

So it's not going to be on popcorn let's decide that here and now.

Rob: 00:27:13

Okay.

Rob: 00:27:14

Let's go with that a minute.

Rob: 00:27:15

Why popcorn?

Annika: 00:27:16

Oh, I love popcorn.

Annika: 00:27:17

That was my favorite snack when I was when I was a little, and every

Annika: 00:27:21

weekend we could make a big bowl.

Annika: 00:27:23

Me I have two siblings, so we each made a big bowl and it was like, Private

Annika: 00:27:28

personal bowl, no sharing so that there wouldn't be any arguments because someone

Annika: 00:27:32

ate faster and someone ate slower.

Annika: 00:27:34

And then in the end, how many did you have?

Annika: 00:27:36

And all of those discussions that anyone having a brother or

Annika: 00:27:39

sister would be familiar with.

Annika: 00:27:41

So I'm just very used to that.

Annika: 00:27:43

I love the crisp.

Annika: 00:27:44

I love the combination of fat and salt, probably a horrendous thing to

Annika: 00:27:48

say, but I think it's really nice.

Annika: 00:27:51

And the popcorn is just a wonderful carrier of that.

Rob: 00:27:55

Yeah, I always look at what someone does now is usually

Rob: 00:27:58

rooted in something in childhood.

Rob: 00:28:00

So it's maybe a way that you were playing and a sense of experience

Rob: 00:28:05

generally popcorns when you watch film.

Annika: 00:28:07

Yeah,

Rob: 00:28:07

so it's family time.

Annika: 00:28:08

I think you're right in that that it's a reflection of some things

Annika: 00:28:12

that you have enjoyed in the past.

Annika: 00:28:14

And I had dream professions when I was when I was a kid, I used,

Annika: 00:28:17

I love to play teacher and my.

Annika: 00:28:21

poor brother and sister.

Annika: 00:28:22

They were the very reluctant students alongside with Barbie dolls and teddy

Annika: 00:28:27

bears and, that I put in place in a school classroom formation, et cetera.

Annika: 00:28:32

So that's one part.

Annika: 00:28:33

The other dream job was to become a a journalist or a writer.

Annika: 00:28:37

So me and a friend, we wrote a little tabloid paper that we then

Annika: 00:28:42

printed out with the help of my dad's copying machine and walked around,

Annika: 00:28:46

knocked on doors and tried to sell.

Annika: 00:28:49

And I can see today, how that is what I enjoyed doing today.

Annika: 00:28:53

I like to teach.

Annika: 00:28:54

Instruct my classes transfer knowledge, transfer energy transferring inspiration.

Annika: 00:29:00

And I also like to write and create and craft things and that creative side of me.

Annika: 00:29:05

So I think when I look back I can see that it, it started there along

Annika: 00:29:10

alongside the bowls of popcorn.

Rob: 00:29:12

Okay that's interesting because my eldest she loved to, to teach.

Rob: 00:29:16

She was always coming down when she was a child and she would have her sister

Rob: 00:29:20

and she, yeah, all these things and she'd be teaching them or she'd be mum.

Rob: 00:29:24

And she's graduating soon as a journalist.

Rob: 00:29:28

It combines those two things.

Annika: 00:29:30

Yeah, same

Rob: 00:29:31

pattern.

Rob: 00:29:31

Okay.

Rob: 00:29:32

So let me get to own your journey, that's about, that says authenticity.

Rob: 00:29:37

And it says freedom and I suppose playfulness.

Rob: 00:29:40

And then when you have that, people can trust.

Rob: 00:29:42

Where did that idea come from?

Annika: 00:29:45

It came from, I think from, I think from different parts.

Annika: 00:29:48

Some, you know that it comes from different ways or different,

Annika: 00:29:52

yeah, from different places.

Annika: 00:29:53

One place was that I really want for people to trust themselves and be

Annika: 00:29:59

true to themselves and listen inwards to what they want so that they don't

Annika: 00:30:03

just become a doctor or a teacher or a lawyer because that because you're

Annika: 00:30:08

imposed to do choose for yourself, and you have to have some self knowledge

Annika: 00:30:12

to do and I know that through coaching.

Annika: 00:30:15

I'm in a good position to help people to find what that is for themselves.

Annika: 00:30:20

And then when you have it, you can make those choices.

Annika: 00:30:22

So that was one driver.

Annika: 00:30:24

And I think the other driver was Perhaps me 10 years ago, just trotting away in the

Annika: 00:30:32

hamster wheel, doing all of these things.

Annika: 00:30:35

And who was it for always pleasing others, forgetting a little bit myself.

Annika: 00:30:39

And even if I'm lucky enough to always have been interested in training

Annika: 00:30:43

and fitness and eating well I think that was what also kept me going.

Annika: 00:30:48

But only up until a certain moment in time because then the wall was there

Annika: 00:30:53

and I had to go home for burnout leave.

Annika: 00:30:55

Just having to take it on so much.

Annika: 00:30:57

And had I had the tools that I now know of, I think I could have avoided that.

Annika: 00:31:02

And that's the second driver of it, to help people become more

Annika: 00:31:07

conscious, knowledgeable, and taking the right actions for themselves.

Annika: 00:31:11

so that they can last for a long time.

Annika: 00:31:13

Yes, you can be productive and have a high productivity, but you want to have

Annika: 00:31:18

that maybe over a long time period, not just here and now and the next

Annika: 00:31:22

week and up until next vacation when you can rest, but still maybe can you.

Annika: 00:31:27

Put your phone off and away, or is the expectation that

Annika: 00:31:31

you will have to be reachable.

Annika: 00:31:32

So it's a little bit about the boundary setting there, which I

Annika: 00:31:36

have not always been being great at.

Annika: 00:31:38

And yeah, that's why I created it to help others.

Rob: 00:31:42

When you talk about coaching did you have a coach, what was the step from you

Rob: 00:31:47

being dissatisfied to making that leap?

Annika: 00:31:50

I think it was a long process maybe longer than it needed

Annika: 00:31:53

to be because things need to land.

Annika: 00:31:56

Need to find the courage to go and do something else.

Annika: 00:31:59

It's easy to say follow your heart and off you go.

Annika: 00:32:01

In reality, maybe you have a house, maybe you have some

Annika: 00:32:04

kids to provide for, et cetera.

Annika: 00:32:06

And not everybody can just take that leap.

Annika: 00:32:08

Yeah to work with that and to process that and then finally realize that, all

Annika: 00:32:13

right so this is what's right for me and I now know that this is the right path.

Annika: 00:32:17

But that, it didn't come overnight for me because I really like to

Annika: 00:32:21

work and I loved also my colleagues.

Annika: 00:32:24

I had fantastic manager and there were so many things that were good.

Annika: 00:32:29

And also now, when looking at it, it was a fantastic place to work.

Annika: 00:32:32

I worked there for 17 years and it has given me so much.

Annika: 00:32:36

Ultimately, the everyday work day didn't fit my values any longer.

Annika: 00:32:41

And then I guess I grew in the coaching to realize that this is

Annika: 00:32:45

always, this will be a glitch now.

Annika: 00:32:47

And then it's better to do something proactively about it than, hang around

Annika: 00:32:52

and maybe risk being bitter and even more tired and less energized and being

Annika: 00:32:58

annoyed at my family, because that's where we can be really ourselves.

Annika: 00:33:02

So I didn't want that to happen.

Rob: 00:33:03

Yeah, makes sense.

Rob: 00:33:06

Okay.

Rob: 00:33:06

So if you okay, so who would be the kind of person who would join your program

Rob: 00:33:12

and really benefit from your program?

Annika: 00:33:14

What I've seen that I work quite well with people that are

Annika: 00:33:18

quite driven, that are ambitious.

Annika: 00:33:21

They have busy agendas both at work.

Annika: 00:33:23

And they can't really see how they will get time to themselves.

Annika: 00:33:28

And that's also one thing.

Annika: 00:33:29

You have to take that time.

Annika: 00:33:31

It's a matter of where do you put yourself on the to do list at the bottom?

Annika: 00:33:34

You need to flip the list then.

Annika: 00:33:35

So people who have started to feel that, something is not quite right.

Annika: 00:33:40

This is not going to be sustainable in the long run.

Annika: 00:33:42

I need to do something.

Annika: 00:33:44

I'm not sure exactly what it is I want to do.

Annika: 00:33:46

I want to change because I want to feel happier.

Annika: 00:33:49

I want to have more peace of mind.

Annika: 00:33:51

I want to feel lighter.

Annika: 00:33:52

I want to feel that I have energy left at the end of the day to spend with

Annika: 00:33:56

family or with the kids without being irritated with things popping up,

Annika: 00:34:01

but just be calmer be more balanced.

Annika: 00:34:04

So those are person.

Annika: 00:34:05

And usually it's women don't know why, but that's how it

Annika: 00:34:08

has been a couple of men too,

Rob: 00:34:09

but mostly women.

Rob: 00:34:10

I suppose looking my background is relationships and when you look

Rob: 00:34:15

it was like 70 percent women who would look at the relationship.

Rob: 00:34:19

Men tend to not look so much for, to other people for help.

Annika: 00:34:24

Interesting.

Rob: 00:34:25

So what I'm seeing is basically people are stuck in a mindset and they

Rob: 00:34:30

can't see how to carry on with, I think if you go into If you live the default life,

Rob: 00:34:36

which is you go into corporate you follow the rules, you do, you turn up every day.

Rob: 00:34:40

I think that grinds people down.

Rob: 00:34:42

And I think it's not sustainable for most people.

Rob: 00:34:45

Because there's going to be more and more pressure, the more

Rob: 00:34:47

that you rise and less time.

Rob: 00:34:49

And.

Rob: 00:34:49

One of the keys now is we have so much more choice of where to give our

Rob: 00:34:54

attention, where to spend our time than we actually have time or attention.

Rob: 00:34:58

And so what it seems to me is what you do is.

Rob: 00:35:02

You break people out of their box of what they can see so that they can

Rob: 00:35:06

zoom out and see more possibilities.

Rob: 00:35:09

So how they can do the same job or how they can have the same lifestyle that they

Rob: 00:35:13

want without having without being bogged down by the, and also have more capacity

Rob: 00:35:19

and energy and joy from their life.

Annika: 00:35:22

Yeah, I like how you summarize that.

Annika: 00:35:24

So yeah, it's self awareness, a sort of self knowledge and habits and tools

Annika: 00:35:29

to steer yourself with so that you can come from a place of of choice.

Annika: 00:35:35

intentional choice for yourself.

Rob: 00:35:36

By your name, you have a little logo, like a little not

Rob: 00:35:39

a flower, but a plant growing.

Rob: 00:35:41

I'm interested in the significance of that because immediately you

Rob: 00:35:43

started drawing, I started In my head had I can't draw but it was like

Rob: 00:35:48

a growth of a flower or something.

Rob: 00:35:50

So i'm interested in where that came from.

Annika: 00:35:52

I just wanted to choose something that's signified or displayed That you'll

Annika: 00:35:57

grow you can grow and we grow together.

Annika: 00:36:00

If we work together, we grow together because that, that, that's the case too.

Annika: 00:36:04

That, in a coaching relationship or a partnership, both parties grow,

Annika: 00:36:08

both the coachee and the coach.

Annika: 00:36:10

So I wanted to just find a little way to, to show that and I chose that emoji

Rob: 00:36:16

I don't know if it was subliminal that i'd noticed it.

Rob: 00:36:18

But when you were talking about personal and professional growth.

Rob: 00:36:22

And the way that you were talking brought to mind, like a little plant growing.

Rob: 00:36:26

And I think really the way that we get out of our trap that we create

Rob: 00:36:31

problems are at level of thinking.

Rob: 00:36:32

And then if we grow up we can grow past the problems or we know

Rob: 00:36:36

how to deal with the problems.

Annika: 00:36:38

We can.

Annika: 00:36:38

And there's another thing to that too, to the growing part.

Annika: 00:36:41

It's that it grows where we water.

Annika: 00:36:44

That's a very Swedish saying.

Annika: 00:36:46

What grows it is where we put the water.

Annika: 00:36:48

So we need to water the the positive sides and and the conscious sides of ourselves.

Annika: 00:36:53

So that they grow and not the other ones.

Rob: 00:36:55

Which goes back to what you were talking about at the inner

Rob: 00:36:58

team.

Rob: 00:36:59

Now if you had a message for someone who's stuck in that position,

Rob: 00:37:04

maybe where you were 10 years ago.

Rob: 00:37:06

What is the key message that you would want them to know?

Annika: 00:37:09

I want them to know that the answer it's somewhere in you.

Annika: 00:37:13

Maybe it's hidden because of others expectations or overloaded agenda.

Annika: 00:37:20

Others, what do you think are others desires or demands and

Annika: 00:37:24

what you need to do and don't but you do know what's right for you.

Annika: 00:37:28

Give yourself time to figure that out, start by unplugging and going

Annika: 00:37:32

outside, spend time in nature, go for a long walk and listen inwards.

Rob: 00:37:37

Yeah.

Rob: 00:37:37

I suppose that's really the problem, isn't it?

Rob: 00:37:40

Is that the speed of life and the amount of stuff that we've got coming at us

Rob: 00:37:44

means that we're moving faster and it's hard to have that time to stop.

Annika: 00:37:48

For sure.

Annika: 00:37:49

The faster you drive, the, the less visibility you have on what's, what's

Annika: 00:37:53

actually happening alongside the road and you just go to maintain the speed.

Rob: 00:37:58

If someone is in that position and wants to reach out.

Rob: 00:38:01

How should they get in contact with you?

Annika: 00:38:03

It works lovely with a direct message on LinkedIn or visit my website.

Annika: 00:38:08

It's in Swedish though, but contact is the same word in Swedish and English.

Annika: 00:38:12

Yeah so there's there's a link there with an email address.

Annika: 00:38:16

Or the good old phone, if somebody would fancy just, giving a phone call.

Rob: 00:38:21

Okay, so if they look on your LinkedIn profile, that

Rob: 00:38:23

has all that information.

Rob: 00:38:24

All

Annika: 00:38:24

of those details are there.

Annika: 00:38:25

That's the short and packaged answer, of course.

Annika: 00:38:28

Yes.

Rob: 00:38:28

Okay.

Rob: 00:38:29

That's great to put more detail to the person I've, that I've seen online.

Annika: 00:38:35

It's been great to chat