Supporting Men Through Change

Rob: 00:00:00

The inspiration for this was we had a talk a couple of

Rob: 00:00:03

weeks ago in the football group.

Rob: 00:00:04

I thought it would be really interesting to, to get a group of people together

Rob: 00:00:10

to discuss it with different aspects.

Rob: 00:00:12

So Branko deals with emotions understanding emotions, emotional

Rob: 00:00:17

intelligence being able to regulate and understand and use your emotions

Rob: 00:00:22

and Lisa is a change management person.

Rob: 00:00:25

Originally with organizations and but also branching into personal change

Rob: 00:00:31

now and understanding cultures.

Rob: 00:00:34

There's a lot that Lisa does, but it's, it started with change management.

Rob: 00:00:37

Still do change management, but now bring it into personal change.

Rob: 00:00:42

And also understanding cultures.

Rob: 00:00:43

I thought it would be really interesting to look at the emotions and also

Rob: 00:00:47

Lisa's experience in making change in organizations and also in personal

Rob: 00:00:53

is how do you bring people along, the people who are left out, the people

Rob: 00:00:56

who lose out because from my framing of the situation is we've lived in

Rob: 00:01:01

patriarchy for thousands of years.

Rob: 00:01:04

Men have had power.

Rob: 00:01:06

A man had a clear path.

Rob: 00:01:07

You just go out, you do your work and your family basically do what you say.

Rob: 00:01:13

You control everything.

Rob: 00:01:15

And about 1950, 1960, suddenly women started having more independence,

Rob: 00:01:21

suddenly didn't need a man and started divorcing in droves because

Rob: 00:01:25

marriage wasn't working out for them.

Rob: 00:01:27

Now we've got a situation where marriage is no longer an economic

Rob: 00:01:31

unit and people are wanting emotional satisfaction from their relationships

Rob: 00:01:36

rather than, as it used to be.

Rob: 00:01:38

Mostly by inertia, you'd marry someone and stay together because

Rob: 00:01:42

of shame and financial reasons and lots of different reasons.

Rob: 00:01:45

The world has changed and many men are stuck.

Rob: 00:01:48

So now you have the whole red pill thing, you have the incel movement

Rob: 00:01:53

of men who have never had success and don't understand the new dynamics.

Rob: 00:01:59

The working world has changed from a logistical world that was

Rob: 00:02:04

manufacturing a lot of blue collar work, a lot of physical work, to a

Rob: 00:02:08

world of where knowledge work, where emotions are more and more important.

Rob: 00:02:13

Where teams and collaboration are more important and where for example,

Rob: 00:02:19

Google project, Aristotle shows that it's better have to have women on

Rob: 00:02:23

the team, it's a benefit because of the emotional intelligence,

Rob: 00:02:26

because they work together better.

Rob: 00:02:28

So many men are losing in industries.

Rob: 00:02:31

And those that aren't so emotionally developed are struggling, I

Rob: 00:02:36

think, with relationships, with understanding the new dynamics and

Rob: 00:02:40

how to function in the new world.

Rob: 00:02:42

So how can we in the workplace and personally, those men who are

Rob: 00:02:48

struggling, what do they need?

Lisa: 00:02:50

I think it's a huge and complex set of questions, isn't it?

Lisa: 00:02:54

And personally, when I journey to work with anyone on change, whether it's in

Lisa: 00:02:58

a team or individually, I would always try to look at people as individuals

Lisa: 00:03:02

and not look at their gender and try not to be judgmental about anything or

Lisa: 00:03:07

have any preconceived ideas, because I think that doesn't help, because every

Lisa: 00:03:12

single change is different for every single individual and also for the same

Lisa: 00:03:18

individual in a different situation or in a different team, all the dynamics change.

Lisa: 00:03:23

So that's the first caveat.

Lisa: 00:03:26

So I would always be cautious about making any generalizations.

Lisa: 00:03:30

Having said that, I think, obviously put your finger on the button there with the

Lisa: 00:03:35

two things that, two areas that really We can't get away from, even if you

Lisa: 00:03:41

start with a blank sheet of paper and no assumptions, which are the systems

Lisa: 00:03:45

that we live in, the societal systems, and they have been, traditionally, as

Lisa: 00:03:49

you were saying, Rob for certain roles, for certain, for one gender and not

Lisa: 00:03:54

for others, and then there has been change, but the change has been changed

Lisa: 00:03:59

in certain areas, in certain companies, in certain national cultures, and then

Lisa: 00:04:06

just at community level, at individual level it's not across the board.

Lisa: 00:04:11

So again, you can't make any assumptions.

Lisa: 00:04:14

It's very complex.

Lisa: 00:04:15

And the other one, yeah, as I just mentioned, the culture, organizational

Lisa: 00:04:19

culture and national culture.

Lisa: 00:04:21

They both play a part and they can both be, because cultures based

Lisa: 00:04:26

around norms, it can be very hard to unpick because they're actually

Lisa: 00:04:30

beliefs and norms that we've mostly accepted from a very early age and

Lisa: 00:04:35

aren't even conscious that they exist.

Lisa: 00:04:37

Yes, some of the more obvious ones you can say, oh, yes, they exist.

Lisa: 00:04:40

We grew up in a society where men were supposed to be the breadwinners,

Lisa: 00:04:44

women were supposed to stay at home, but that's all changed.

Lisa: 00:04:48

But there's so much under the surface, so many layers to

Lisa: 00:04:52

that, that, that's not enough.

Lisa: 00:04:54

The short answer to where do we start is I think you have to start as far

Lisa: 00:04:58

as possible with the blank sheet and really dig into what an individual

Lisa: 00:05:03

wants what their values are or what a team's values are, what you want to

Lisa: 00:05:08

achieve and what your situation is.

Lisa: 00:05:10

And then from there move into digging into the emotions.

Lisa: 00:05:14

What you're feeling and what you're likely to feel going through the

Lisa: 00:05:18

changes and try to map those out.

Lisa: 00:05:20

And then also the actions which you need to take rather

Lisa: 00:05:25

than just thinking about it.

Lisa: 00:05:27

But yeah, there's so much folded up in there.

Branka: 00:05:29

I really liked what you outlined because Like you said,

Branka: 00:05:32

there is a lot of different factors.

Branka: 00:05:35

I also believe that we need to include in order to even have

Branka: 00:05:40

a proper discussion around it.

Branka: 00:05:41

After all, so many different elements of life affect how we perceive situations

Branka: 00:05:48

and even those changes that came, and also this aspect of where layers beyond.

Branka: 00:05:55

I would touch this for the start because I would say that, like Rob

Branka: 00:05:59

mentioned, this patriarchal system that has been in place for so long had

Branka: 00:06:05

certain benefits we can say for men.

Branka: 00:06:08

As it was basically a lot of focus, a lot of performance, a

Branka: 00:06:13

lot of achievement, a lot of, we can say relying on outside power.

Branka: 00:06:19

And if we go way back in the history, we can understand why so

Branka: 00:06:24

many were there to protect family.

Branka: 00:06:27

They were there to provide the family.

Branka: 00:06:30

And yeah, that went like some kind of tradition and as women are more

Branka: 00:06:36

empowered, this kind of break down.

Branka: 00:06:39

But at the same time, those biological systems we have, emotional mechanism

Branka: 00:06:45

we have, it's wired in certain ways through generation, certain elements

Branka: 00:06:50

are still passed by, despite the fact that we are not living in cages.

Branka: 00:06:55

It was way harder for women to keep up with all of this because, we

Branka: 00:07:01

were competing basically with the man world and man of power and such.

Branka: 00:07:06

But now, as women entered more and more spaces in the world and are present, This

Branka: 00:07:13

gap between emotional intelligence being present or not has become more relevant.

Branka: 00:07:19

On one hand, it's challenging for men to see women come onto their

Branka: 00:07:25

positions and lead in a different way because there is a feminine way of

Branka: 00:07:30

compassion, of caring, of collaboration.

Branka: 00:07:33

They come with some kind of naturally.

Branka: 00:07:36

Because as women we basically combined in groups.

Branka: 00:07:40

We talked along the way basically support this family and we can say

Branka: 00:07:44

there is a certain level of biological aspect of it, and it's an important

Branka: 00:07:49

aspect, but on the other hand like it was also mentioned, the system and

Branka: 00:07:54

values and culture hasn't been updated.

Branka: 00:07:58

So there is no support for young men to learn about emotions.

Branka: 00:08:03

We are still seeing that Anger is a predominant way of boys standing

Branka: 00:08:09

up for themselves, that it's not okay that they are very expressive.

Branka: 00:08:15

Young men don't even feel safe to express because, on the other hand, we have

Branka: 00:08:20

women who are Many times traumatized from the past and are now using strong

Branka: 00:08:27

manipulation techniques and strong way to basically get what they want.

Branka: 00:08:32

And they learned from the man of power.

Branka: 00:08:34

So we have a big confusion.

Branka: 00:08:37

And the biggest aspect that is now becoming a big challenge for men is that.

Branka: 00:08:43

Despite the fact that we have this manipulation more on the women's side,

Branka: 00:08:47

but it's, I don't like the stereotype for gender, but as we are talking about men,

Branka: 00:08:52

I would like to outline this dynamic.

Branka: 00:08:54

So women proceeded with this ladder of external power, and they still have

Branka: 00:09:01

Many times better emotional skills.

Branka: 00:09:03

So men are left not only with this deep sense of I'm not enough.

Branka: 00:09:09

I don't know how to, I don't even know what they feel because

Branka: 00:09:12

nobody ever asked me how I feel.

Branka: 00:09:15

And on the other hand, there's a big struggle because times are moving

Branka: 00:09:20

fast, things are changing in business.

Branka: 00:09:23

The need for creativity and collaboration and innovation

Branka: 00:09:27

is more important than ever.

Branka: 00:09:29

There are a lot of changes as Lisa is specialized in, and when we wanna

Branka: 00:09:35

implement effectively any change, we first aware of the work with it,

Branka: 00:09:41

address it in order to go further.

Branka: 00:09:43

So it may be in business change, personal change, or basically gender change.

Branka: 00:09:48

It has to be supported with it was mentioned.

Branka: 00:09:53

So rewiring those beliefs and actually get this perspective a little more

Branka: 00:09:57

aligned with what it means to be human.

Lisa: 00:10:00

Being human is really what we want to get to, isn't it?

Lisa: 00:10:03

And to be able to use all your skills and attributes and develop

Lisa: 00:10:08

them in a way that's beneficial to yourself and to others.

Lisa: 00:10:12

And I think what that point you made, Branka, about, boys, it starts with

Lisa: 00:10:15

education and with at school and in the home as well, but in society.

Lisa: 00:10:19

But it's really hard.

Lisa: 00:10:20

to do it alone, even if in the family, which is really focused on not having

Lisa: 00:10:26

having stereotypes and types and allowing boys to express themselves.

Lisa: 00:10:31

It's still really counter cultural in a way.

Lisa: 00:10:34

And I also agree that, women, a lot, some women have found a way to be at

Lisa: 00:10:39

the same way as the traditional male role and to be bulldozing through to get

Lisa: 00:10:45

success Because that's coming back to the system and success is normally based on

Lisa: 00:10:50

money and power above everything else.

Lisa: 00:10:54

I think it is changing.

Lisa: 00:10:55

And again, what you said about, the world of work changing or

Lisa: 00:10:59

the world anyway, with lots of AI coming in, how do we use technology?

Lisa: 00:11:04

Technology has been around forever, but it's been getting faster and faster.

Lisa: 00:11:08

And how do we have that interface where we know what makes us human and

Lisa: 00:11:12

what we can do better than a machine?

Lisa: 00:11:14

And what a machine can do better than us?

Lisa: 00:11:16

That's always been a challenge in change management.

Lisa: 00:11:19

I can see the answer.

Lisa: 00:11:21

It looks good on paper, the figures are right, logic's

Lisa: 00:11:25

right, but then it doesn't work.

Lisa: 00:11:27

Why?

Lisa: 00:11:27

Because you're dealing with people and that's people of both of,

Lisa: 00:11:30

any walk of life, both genders, all different generations.

Lisa: 00:11:33

Because I think a generational aspect can come in as well.

Lisa: 00:11:36

But really, if you try to look at it as an individual, that's helpful.

Lisa: 00:11:40

But, it has to start with education and I don't know what the answer

Lisa: 00:11:44

to that is because it's not about telling people stuff really it's

Lisa: 00:11:48

about experiencing things, but about dismantling assumptions in the system

Lisa: 00:11:53

which is really difficult stuff.

Lisa: 00:11:55

And the other thing I was thinking about was the way we could say

Lisa: 00:11:59

future of work but it's here now.

Lisa: 00:12:00

the way people relate to the company that they work for,

Lisa: 00:12:04

the team that they work for.

Lisa: 00:12:05

What is a company now?

Lisa: 00:12:07

People want more from a company or they want a different kind of contract.

Lisa: 00:12:11

They want more respect, more freedom, things like working remotely.

Lisa: 00:12:17

And this is a big battle that's going on as well.

Lisa: 00:12:20

And so how to engage people, again, going back to Emotional intelligence.

Lisa: 00:12:24

How do you actually engage people and find out what they want?

Lisa: 00:12:27

In some cases, people don't really even know what they want.

Lisa: 00:12:31

And maybe that is more men than women.

Lisa: 00:12:33

I don't know.

Lisa: 00:12:34

But people definitely in general, just being on the track to finish school,

Lisa: 00:12:38

to get training and then to go to work.

Lisa: 00:12:40

They're starting to more and more people are starting to question what is it for?

Lisa: 00:12:43

And what do I want?

Lisa: 00:12:44

So those layers as well, I think to move forward, there should be a lot

Lisa: 00:12:49

more digging deeper to start with.

Lisa: 00:12:52

This is always a case in change, and it's always resisted.

Lisa: 00:12:55

Because it takes a lot longer, it's uncomfortable, it takes a lot of

Lisa: 00:12:58

energy, you're going to have to question things that you had actually just

Lisa: 00:13:02

internalized or thought were normal, or yes, why do we need to question that?

Lisa: 00:13:07

So it's a big challenge for the whole of society.

Branka: 00:13:10

I would just add that is the point you outlined.

Branka: 00:13:13

Now it's really a big one.

Branka: 00:13:15

For many years men were basically celebrated to be all focused on work

Branka: 00:13:21

and they dedicated their lives to the company they were working if they were

Branka: 00:13:27

ambitious to plan that letter, they were overworking, they were focusing

Branka: 00:13:33

all of their energy to this company.

Branka: 00:13:35

They were living for it.

Branka: 00:13:37

And now we came to the time when we are asking them, what do

Branka: 00:13:42

you like to do outside of work and what inspires you in life?

Branka: 00:13:45

And for many, it's a big struggle to look around and see that they do not

Branka: 00:13:50

even know what to grasp or what to touch because their lives and values

Branka: 00:13:56

were built on this corporate world.

Branka: 00:13:59

And helping them see that it is important to invest also in other

Branka: 00:14:04

areas and how beneficial this is.

Branka: 00:14:06

If we can slowly achieve that as a humanity, I believe we

Branka: 00:14:11

will benefit in so many ways.

Lisa: 00:14:13

Maybe it's going back to those principles of values and interests.

Lisa: 00:14:17

And that is where you could do something at school.

Lisa: 00:14:20

And instead of putting people on the track and showing one future that you

Lisa: 00:14:24

could really allow children to focus in on what actually sparks their interest

Lisa: 00:14:30

and where they're interested in.

Lisa: 00:14:33

I was just thinking as you were talking there, , but, and yeah, it's interesting

Lisa: 00:14:36

from point of view of different cultures, Japanese society has gone through that.

Lisa: 00:14:40

Perhaps faster, but they're still going through it.

Lisa: 00:14:43

So we can't really see the answer, but instead you can definitely see

Lisa: 00:14:47

the issues there and also where women have then said, a lot of women

Lisa: 00:14:51

said, okay, I'm going to do this.

Lisa: 00:14:53

I'm not going to take the route of staying at home and doing flower arranging.

Lisa: 00:14:56

I'm going to be successful at work, but I'm also going to deny other aspects.

Lisa: 00:15:02

So yeah, there's no real solution.

Lisa: 00:15:04

Yeah.

Lisa: 00:15:05

But it's interesting to see the change.

Rob: 00:15:07

What I really like is the idea the frame has changed.

Rob: 00:15:12

When something changes, not everyone is on board with that change.

Rob: 00:15:17

And because people tend to get on board with a change that they

Rob: 00:15:20

have something to benefit from.

Rob: 00:15:22

And so there's always going to be some people who are going to gain from a

Rob: 00:15:24

change and who are eager to change, and then there's going to be some that

Rob: 00:15:29

don't want things to change, which is where the resistance comes in.

Rob: 00:15:32

So what I found really interesting you mentioned different levels

Rob: 00:15:36

of change Lisa with norms.

Rob: 00:15:38

And I think that's really interesting when you look at how society has changed

Rob: 00:15:43

in terms of political correctness like TV shows, that they can't

Rob: 00:15:47

show now because they were racist or they were sexist or whatever.

Rob: 00:15:51

And what's happened is people have learned the things to say.

Rob: 00:15:56

But they haven't necessarily changed.

Rob: 00:15:58

And I think that's what Trump and Boris Johnson brought out in their

Rob: 00:16:02

quite xenophobic kind of campaigns.

Rob: 00:16:05

So I'm thinking about what, what's changed.

Rob: 00:16:08

And I think from a perspective, you talked about men having once been the provider,

Rob: 00:16:14

I don't think they know what they are now.

Rob: 00:16:16

I don't think they know the new frame.

Rob: 00:16:18

So if they're not the provider.

Rob: 00:16:20

And I think what's lost is what they haven't been given a

Rob: 00:16:23

narrative for what that change is.

Rob: 00:16:26

I think change is moving.

Rob: 00:16:27

I think once we sought power and now I think what's happened is we don't have

Rob: 00:16:32

a clear narrative for what that is.

Rob: 00:16:34

And maybe it was, I think for me, I think it's going to be a move from.

Rob: 00:16:39

From the old hierarchy of power to personal expression.

Rob: 00:16:43

And where you were a provider now, you're valued for who you are.

Rob: 00:16:48

Men are being told to be vulnerable.

Rob: 00:16:51

So this is a lot of where the conversation originally started from.

Rob: 00:16:55

But then vulnerable means to a man who hasn't been getting any other narrative,

Rob: 00:17:01

means that they cry and tell their partner or people about their problem.

Rob: 00:17:06

And then people say like you're just a cry baby, stop whining and, deal with it.

Rob: 00:17:10

And I think it's not understanding what their role is where they're

Rob: 00:17:15

like, what's replaced power and how do you express your emotions?

Rob: 00:17:20

On the one hand you're very stoic and you don't say anything.

Rob: 00:17:24

You just put on this stiff upper lip and you just do it and then on the other

Rob: 00:17:28

hand there is crying and not taking responsibility for your own life and

Rob: 00:17:34

responsibilities, but you're just hoping someone will take that off your plate.

Lisa: 00:17:38

With any big change with transformation, you need a vision

Lisa: 00:17:42

and you need it to plug into your values and why it's important to you.

Lisa: 00:17:46

And if somebody's just telling you, this is what we say now,

Lisa: 00:17:49

this is how we're doing it now, that doesn't do that, does it?

Lisa: 00:17:52

Any change, even if it's one that you know is going to be good

Lisa: 00:17:55

for you, you have loss in there.

Lisa: 00:17:57

And that fear of loss, especially when it is connected to how you

Lisa: 00:18:01

feel about yourself as a person, is, why are you going to do that?

Lisa: 00:18:05

So that's not clear to a lot of people.

Lisa: 00:18:08

There's a huge backlash really to say, no, we don't want change.

Lisa: 00:18:12

And some politicians have plugged into that because there is the

Lisa: 00:18:16

grain of truth in that, which is, what am I letting go of?

Lisa: 00:18:19

What's going to replace it?

Lisa: 00:18:20

Why am I doing this?

Lisa: 00:18:21

This is somebody else has told me that this is a thing to do, but I

Lisa: 00:18:25

don't and I don't understand it.

Lisa: 00:18:28

It's just being imposed upon me, and that's the worst kind of thing.

Branka: 00:18:31

I would agree and I would like to touch one aspect that opens up a lot of

Branka: 00:18:37

this confusion around, may it be change, may it be resistance, or may it be not

Branka: 00:18:43

adopting, knowing but not adopting.

Branka: 00:18:45

So if we just look at how our brain works and how our emotions

Branka: 00:18:50

are, Forming and coming up.

Branka: 00:18:52

Our brains are emotional first and whenever we are faced with certain change

Branka: 00:18:58

the fear will kick sooner than the logic.

Branka: 00:19:01

And this fear is a blockage and it's normal that our brain and our ego will

Branka: 00:19:08

basically do everything in its power to get us back into the safety and

Branka: 00:19:15

get us back into this comforting zone we know we feel certain sense around.

Branka: 00:19:22

And this is why every change or every adaptation is struggling,

Branka: 00:19:27

like Lisa beautifully said, we need to adapt our perspective, we need

Branka: 00:19:31

to understand what is this for us.

Branka: 00:19:34

So having a certain sense of value with this change.

Branka: 00:19:40

But I would say from this maybe corporate aspect, it's maybe even more important

Branka: 00:19:47

than just knowing what it brings to me.

Branka: 00:19:50

It's also knowing that I am a part of this new solution.

Branka: 00:19:54

So getting people aboard, knowing what they value, and actually

Branka: 00:19:59

letting them know we're all in this together and we're going forward.

Branka: 00:20:04

So when looking in the men's world there is a lack of deep

Branka: 00:20:09

connection between men and women.

Branka: 00:20:11

So many don't have even one trusting friend that they can talk to.

Branka: 00:20:17

They are joking.

Branka: 00:20:18

They have those football talks or so on.

Branka: 00:20:21

But when it comes to real vulnerability, they, yeah, they are left alone in

Branka: 00:20:27

it and they're looking for a way.

Branka: 00:20:30

And I would say for a man can be confident, vulnerable, and honest

Branka: 00:20:36

to the Many people, so not just one, but two other, maybe with team,

Branka: 00:20:40

maybe with partner or whatever.

Branka: 00:20:43

There is a certain period that needs to be taken place in one safe relation.

Branka: 00:20:49

So every wound is healed within relationship.

Branka: 00:20:53

Just like it's formed, it's healed.

Branka: 00:20:55

So having one, it can be a coach, it can be a therapist, it can be a

Branka: 00:21:00

trusted friend you can be open to.

Branka: 00:21:03

And yeah, it's normal that if a human hasn't been in contact with emotions for

Branka: 00:21:10

such a long time, we can say 20, 30 years, of course, when the emotion will be first

Branka: 00:21:17

when the emotion will have permission to be expressed, it will be a lot of sobbing.

Branka: 00:21:22

It will be a lot of crying.

Branka: 00:21:24

It will be intense.

Branka: 00:21:26

And this intensity can decrease.

Branka: 00:21:29

Only if we give it space to be even expressed, heard and seen for what it is.

Branka: 00:21:36

And those moments are crucial for a man will he dare to go forward.

Branka: 00:21:42

So he needs someone who can hold that space.

Branka: 00:21:46

Maybe just crying, may telling, may crossing all over the place.

Branka: 00:21:51

But learning how to express it and how to feel safe with it so that then can be

Branka: 00:21:58

a balance of being vulnerable enough to inspire others, empower others, but at

Branka: 00:22:03

the same time standing confident and with clarity so that people still trust you.

Branka: 00:22:10

And now you have their back and you are standing there for them.

Rob: 00:22:14

What I really loved what you picked out there.

Rob: 00:22:17

Branka right at the beginning was about the problem of men

Rob: 00:22:20

not having anyone to open up to.

Rob: 00:22:23

I used to have I used to do dating groups.

Rob: 00:22:25

And I realized that when there weren't any women in the room, Men would talk

Rob: 00:22:31

differently as soon as there was a woman there They would moderate what

Rob: 00:22:35

they said and even though they would say, oh, no, i'm quite happy to open.

Rob: 00:22:38

No, they wouldn't.

Rob: 00:22:39

So I started to have just men's groups.

Rob: 00:22:42

And Men would talk more openly, but what they got to is They said, I

Rob: 00:22:49

don't really want a girlfriend, i'm not even really that bothered about

Rob: 00:22:52

a girlfriend, I just want a friend.

Rob: 00:22:53

They say I have Friends that I play football with, but

Rob: 00:22:55

all they do is do football.

Rob: 00:22:57

I have friends I go to the pub with, and then all they do is drink.

Rob: 00:23:00

I have friends that I'll go out and do whatever with, but that's all they do.

Rob: 00:23:05

So they have it's based around an activity and it's not really based around sharing.

Rob: 00:23:10

So yeah, there is that lack of connection and when it's seen in men's health

Rob: 00:23:14

statistics that when a man isn't in a relationship so a heterosexual

Rob: 00:23:19

man isn't in a relationship, then he really doesn't have a network.

Rob: 00:23:24

That is at the core of it.

Rob: 00:23:26

And as you say, I think the whole frame of relationships, that's my whole thesis.

Rob: 00:23:30

The whole frame of relationship is wrong.

Rob: 00:23:32

We're also in an environment that stresses us because we're

Rob: 00:23:37

in an unnatural environment.

Rob: 00:23:39

So we start from a stress place as well.

Rob: 00:23:41

That's two of the keys.

Rob: 00:23:43

I going back to Lisa when you were saying about the gain and loss, I

Rob: 00:23:46

think that's really important to what people gain and what people lose.

Rob: 00:23:51

Whenever you talk about men, I remember, I don't know if you're familiar with

Rob: 00:23:55

Joseph Campbell but he used to talk a lot about different cultures and how

Rob: 00:24:00

important the rites of passage were.

Rob: 00:24:02

And that in our society, we don't have a rites of passage that, how

Rob: 00:24:05

do you know when you're an adult?

Rob: 00:24:07

And when I've asked people that question, most people will say when

Rob: 00:24:09

they had a child or when they had, when they married or something like that.

Rob: 00:24:14

But we don't have that narrative and what he also used to talk about is we,

Rob: 00:24:19

the spiritual narrative that we have so that as in religion or whatever, the

Rob: 00:24:24

spiritual narrative and our religion, and he's say, the spiritual narrative

Rob: 00:24:28

should be based on the science of the day.

Rob: 00:24:31

And we have a 2000 year olds spiritual narrative that doesn't

Rob: 00:24:35

match with the science of the day.

Rob: 00:24:37

And so it should be updated.

Rob: 00:24:38

Think that some of that plays into what we're talking about.

Branka: 00:24:42

I would say something about this your comments around those

Branka: 00:24:46

texts, all texts that are that were written and should be updated.

Branka: 00:24:52

On one hand, I agree that Certain elements, for sure, have

Branka: 00:24:57

changed and cannot be totally applied to today's world.

Branka: 00:25:02

But I have been, for quite a while very interested in different religions.

Branka: 00:25:07

I was exploring different sects that were addressing those human

Branka: 00:25:13

struggles, human experiences we have.

Branka: 00:25:15

And I would say that when we read those texts without our predispositions

Branka: 00:25:23

and assumptions that are formed from the modern world, but read

Branka: 00:25:28

them with curiosity to understand the meaning the texts could be.

Branka: 00:25:34

For me, it was a bigger elevation around how beautifully, in

Branka: 00:25:39

fact, those old Asian texts.

Branka: 00:25:42

Outlined the importance of connecting feminine and masculine energy

Branka: 00:25:48

because the both have certain rules, certain characteristics that

Branka: 00:25:54

are unique to one or the other.

Branka: 00:25:56

We forget or didn't learn that we, we all have both, but are

Branka: 00:26:02

expressed in a different way.

Branka: 00:26:04

And many of those messages are really on the first side, they are seen as

Branka: 00:26:10

outside power, outside conquer and such.

Branka: 00:26:14

But when I dive deeper for me, it was truly an inner journey of inner power.

Branka: 00:26:21

So this backbone of what it really means to act and what it really

Branka: 00:26:26

means to build up some journey was more expressive in the inside than

Branka: 00:26:33

outside, but told in a different way.

Branka: 00:26:36

I don't know, but this was my perspective and I wanted to share

Branka: 00:26:39

because you mentioned this because I was fascinated that those deep truth

Branka: 00:26:44

about human psyche and human heart and brain were actually written so many

Branka: 00:26:50

years ago and known so many years ago and even used a lot better than we

Branka: 00:26:55

use it today with all the information and technology and resources we have.

Sarah: 00:27:00

It's interesting about feminine and masculine energy this

Sarah: 00:27:04

particular topic because I was always a, Women in a man's world.

Sarah: 00:27:09

So if you imagine the only software engineer, I joined computer science

Sarah: 00:27:14

engineering in the late nineties.

Sarah: 00:27:15

So I was the girl in the room.

Sarah: 00:27:17

Also before that when I was in school early on, I was the

Sarah: 00:27:21

girl that played with the boys.

Sarah: 00:27:23

So I was a tomboy.

Sarah: 00:27:24

And when I was very young, so a young girl, I preferred playing

Sarah: 00:27:28

with tools and things that involve sports over playing with dolls.

Sarah: 00:27:32

I was a female which had, I think, a lot of masculine energy which

Sarah: 00:27:38

made it quite easy for me when I did join the software engineering

Sarah: 00:27:44

field to join working with all men.

Sarah: 00:27:46

I never felt uncomfortable in an all men environment.

Sarah: 00:27:50

I even feel more comfortable sometimes in an all men environment than I

Sarah: 00:27:54

do in an all female environment.

Sarah: 00:27:56

What's interesting, being that female with all males, I also saw men be men.

Sarah: 00:28:03

So they usually didn't have a problem being themselves with me in the room.

Sarah: 00:28:08

Because if you imagine, I have quite a masculine energy, so I could keep up

Sarah: 00:28:13

with them or talk around the same topics or just be one of the guys in a way, a.

Sarah: 00:28:18

And what's interesting is I had sometimes the similar issues and

Sarah: 00:28:23

problems that males do when I would be in an environment with females.

Sarah: 00:28:27

So you put me for example I went on a speaker retreat a couple of weeks

Sarah: 00:28:32

ago and it was almost all females.

Sarah: 00:28:34

And there was like one guy there.

Sarah: 00:28:35

I felt very uncomfortable.

Sarah: 00:28:37

I felt insecure.

Sarah: 00:28:39

I felt a little bit like out of place or not really maybe even slightly

Sarah: 00:28:44

confused about what was normal or what, in a way, more vulnerable

Sarah: 00:28:49

than normal in an uncomfortable way that didn't bring out my power.

Sarah: 00:28:53

So it even made me feel not able to be vulnerable.

Sarah: 00:28:58

And I am a woman of vulnerability.

Sarah: 00:29:01

Like I even teach people how to be vulnerable.

Sarah: 00:29:03

It, I was putting up more guards in a way and protecting myself

Sarah: 00:29:08

from this group of females.

Sarah: 00:29:10

Because I couldn't quite understand, let's say in full their way of

Sarah: 00:29:14

communicating or what they mean behind things or what's going on there.

Sarah: 00:29:18

I just wanted to bring that up because we're talking about

Sarah: 00:29:20

feminine and masculine energy.

Sarah: 00:29:22

In a way, I feel like because I have been a woman in a men's world,

Sarah: 00:29:27

I've been able to interject the femininity that exists within me.

Sarah: 00:29:31

That's a little bit more than the men in the room in the right level

Sarah: 00:29:37

so that they feel safe with it.

Sarah: 00:29:39

And they've been able to get very vulnerable with me, rather than

Sarah: 00:29:42

throwing them into a space, which is having so much feminine energy that

Sarah: 00:29:48

it can even make a person feel quite insecure and close up and go almost

Sarah: 00:29:52

on the opposite side of vulnerability.

Sarah: 00:29:54

And because of that, I've been able to really help men grow in crazy ways since

Sarah: 00:30:02

I was a very young female, in my early twenties, helping them see how they work

Sarah: 00:30:07

and how they act in a completely different way because it was on the smallest level.

Sarah: 00:30:11

I wonder.

Sarah: 00:30:12

If there's something to it, Rob, when you were mentioning that you

Sarah: 00:30:15

work with all men groups, that, it's not that men cannot be vulnerable.

Sarah: 00:30:20

It's just feeling very unsafe when you are entering a space that has a lot

Sarah: 00:30:25

more of a different hormone or a lot more of a different energy than you

Sarah: 00:30:28

do that you feel so insecure, you feel very unseen in a way or even scared

Sarah: 00:30:33

about it because it's just different.

Sarah: 00:30:35

And maybe Rob, you have on the opposite side, because I've watched

Sarah: 00:30:39

your profile for quite a while, we've been in touch for a while,

Sarah: 00:30:42

a little bit more feminine energy.

Sarah: 00:30:43

So you could even compare it to me, if you imagine me having more masculine

Sarah: 00:30:48

energy being in that environment.

Sarah: 00:30:49

So being able to slowly interject this way of getting to our core and

Sarah: 00:30:56

what vulnerability really means.

Sarah: 00:30:57

It doesn't mean crying, by the way.

Sarah: 00:30:59

Men show vulnerability differently.

Sarah: 00:31:01

It's really about, if you're going to talk with a man in general, and you start

Sarah: 00:31:06

talking about too many feelings and, like you have to be crying or you have, It

Sarah: 00:31:11

just doesn't, that's not how they get to it and getting them to maybe be a little

Sarah: 00:31:15

bit more in the head and logical in the way that we talk about okay, can we

Sarah: 00:31:20

think about that maybe everyone in this room might have a different conviction

Sarah: 00:31:26

of what's happening in the space.

Sarah: 00:31:27

That's logical.

Sarah: 00:31:28

That's what the mind, And when you start to talk, let's say in the men

Sarah: 00:31:33

speak or the way that they talk, they can start going into it in a

Sarah: 00:31:36

logical way to the point where they can start seeing their own schemas

Sarah: 00:31:41

and things that are going on there.

Sarah: 00:31:43

And they're very capable of being vulnerable.

Sarah: 00:31:46

It's just a different language.

Sarah: 00:31:47

It's like a different approach.

Rob: 00:31:49

That's really interesting.

Rob: 00:31:50

Thank you, Sarah.

Rob: 00:31:51

So I've done a lot in relationships and many people talk about the

Rob: 00:31:55

masculine and the feminine.

Rob: 00:31:57

And for me, it's never had any concrete, I just think there just is.

Rob: 00:32:02

I've never considered myself as having a feminine energy.

Rob: 00:32:05

Having said that I've worked predominantly women friends with women.

Rob: 00:32:10

And because of the nature of what I've done, it's 70 percent women, less men

Rob: 00:32:15

because it's been individual growth.

Rob: 00:32:17

It's been in relationships.

Rob: 00:32:18

There's a couple of things that I think are really interesting that you brought

Rob: 00:32:22

up that might be worth looking at.

Rob: 00:32:24

The first is, I think there's a problem, men and women communicating.

Rob: 00:32:28

And that problem is traditionally, and this is my stereotypical biased

Rob: 00:32:33

idea of how I pigeonholed, but patriarchy said, man is the boss.

Rob: 00:32:39

If your wife and your children don't listen to you and don't do what

Rob: 00:32:43

you say, You're not a real man.

Rob: 00:32:45

So the man had to be the leader of every household.

Rob: 00:32:47

What that meant is that men feel a pressure to know what to do.

Rob: 00:32:53

They feel a pressure.

Rob: 00:32:54

This is what we're doing.

Rob: 00:32:55

Whereas women can't overtly challenge.

Rob: 00:32:59

And because they can't overtly challenge, they tend to have

Rob: 00:33:01

to put it softer in a way that always was pandering to male egos.

Rob: 00:33:06

And they need to say as if it's the man's own idea.

Rob: 00:33:10

So I think women communicate in a way that comes across as very

Rob: 00:33:13

manipulative because they're not direct.

Rob: 00:33:15

They don't just say what they mean.

Rob: 00:33:17

And it's it's veiled and it's confusing to a man, to a simple man like me.

Sarah: 00:33:22

It's funny you say that I don't want to interrupt you, but that

Sarah: 00:33:25

is the problem that I have with of communicating with females versus men.

Sarah: 00:33:29

I love it when people just say what they think and do what they say.

Sarah: 00:33:33

It's something which I find easy and to handle and to be around.

Sarah: 00:33:39

But when there's all of this levels of communication that's happening below

Sarah: 00:33:45

the words, that's when I start to feel quite insecure and quite stressed out.

Sarah: 00:33:49

What's really going on here?

Sarah: 00:33:50

They're not saying what they really want, that they're not saying what

Sarah: 00:33:52

they really need, and then you start to feel this kind of like insecurity

Sarah: 00:33:56

of, what do they really need or want?

Sarah: 00:33:58

And I totally get that.

Lisa: 00:34:00

On that note, that's also cultural as well.

Lisa: 00:34:02

So it will be so it's much more when I was working in Japan,

Lisa: 00:34:08

there's so much more of that.

Lisa: 00:34:09

And it also made it easier for me as a British woman, maybe.

Lisa: 00:34:13

To start to understand that there's some of my American or Australian

Lisa: 00:34:18

friends who wanted to be very direct.

Lisa: 00:34:20

Yeah.

Lisa: 00:34:20

That's why I like the Netherlands.

Lisa: 00:34:22

It's

Sarah: 00:34:22

very direct in the Netherlands.

Sarah: 00:34:24

Yeah.

Sarah: 00:34:24

And I struggle a little bit with the UK culture because it's so indirect.

Rob: 00:34:28

So we have the masculine and feminine and going back to the groups I don't

Rob: 00:34:32

feel it was so much that the presence of a woman in the room as a feeling of

Rob: 00:34:36

being judged and what men were saying.

Rob: 00:34:39

So in the men's groups or whatever, men will come in and they go, what do I do?

Rob: 00:34:43

And they want direct, tell me exactly what I do.

Rob: 00:34:46

Okay.

Rob: 00:34:46

And so for example, this guy said, give a scenario, what should I have said?

Rob: 00:34:52

I go you say what you feel.

Rob: 00:34:53

Yeah.

Rob: 00:34:53

And maybe I think maybe a male energy, if you're talking about

Rob: 00:34:58

masculine energy and masculine energy is get it right is what do I do?

Rob: 00:35:02

Is make the decision.

Rob: 00:35:03

Whereas a female energy is maybe what do I feel?

Rob: 00:35:07

Because men put so much pressure that they feel that if a woman is

Rob: 00:35:10

unhappy, it's their responsibility.

Rob: 00:35:13

They're not doing something right.

Rob: 00:35:14

And because they're not doing something right, they feel that they are failing.

Rob: 00:35:18

So it could be that the, their partner is depressed.

Rob: 00:35:21

They take it personally, like they have caused

Sarah: 00:35:23

your discomfort or your bad feeling.

Rob: 00:35:25

Yeah and They're trying to get it right and the woman, I

Rob: 00:35:29

think women generally are trying to engage with them and they want

Rob: 00:35:33

an emotional engagement and it to develop not with any certain outcome.

Rob: 00:35:39

But just to understand how they feel and to connect.

Rob: 00:35:42

I've

Sarah: 00:35:42

seen it already in young children.

Sarah: 00:35:45

If I look at my children.

Sarah: 00:35:47

Boys, or my son and his friends, they hit each other on the head or they have

Sarah: 00:35:51

a little like fight and get it out and they're all finished and there's no

Sarah: 00:35:55

problem anymore where the girls, both of them because I have two, it's all

Sarah: 00:35:59

more about emotions and what they feel that someone might have said and what

Sarah: 00:36:03

they think of them and it's so much more complex there's so many different

Sarah: 00:36:07

players and they'll hold more grudges and like you said there's some more

Sarah: 00:36:11

judgment, I think, where if I asked my son, so how is it with your friend?

Sarah: 00:36:15

Oh, we're good.

Sarah: 00:36:16

We're fine.

Sarah: 00:36:16

Everything's they may have a tiff, but it's very direct.

Sarah: 00:36:19

It's very physical and then it's done, and I think that interaction

Sarah: 00:36:24

between that masculine and feminine energy can be quite stressful.

Sarah: 00:36:27

If you're used to being able to hit someone on the head and just

Sarah: 00:36:30

fix it or whatever, and the other one might be holding a grudge,

Sarah: 00:36:33

then you may start to think, is this person judging me right now?

Sarah: 00:36:38

Because I can't rely on that.

Sarah: 00:36:41

That's that we could just, duke it out and we're finished and we're done with this.

Sarah: 00:36:45

And I think That's the reason at that retreat two weeks ago, I felt

Sarah: 00:36:50

uncomfortable is I felt that I could possibly be judged where when I'm hanging

Sarah: 00:36:55

out with men, I don't feel judged.

Sarah: 00:36:57

I feel just they don't like me, they're going to say it and we're going to

Sarah: 00:37:02

have a bit of a tiff, we'll have maybe a little exchange of words and I will

Sarah: 00:37:08

most likely use my feminine energy to make sure it's not a real fight.

Sarah: 00:37:11

I'll get them to think maybe differently about the situation,

Sarah: 00:37:14

but it's finished and we move on and I know that we're colleagues

Sarah: 00:37:18

and we're friends and we're okay.

Sarah: 00:37:20

Where sometimes I feel like people with more feminine energy, they're

Sarah: 00:37:23

holding something in there, but they'll smile and they'll say it's okay.

Sarah: 00:37:26

And so then my brain starts to go are they really okay?

Sarah: 00:37:29

Or, are they bringing this into every interaction from this point forward?

Lisa: 00:37:33

I'm just starting to think about if we could do something again in schools or

Lisa: 00:37:37

I don't think necessarily having to say masculine or feminine energy, but just

Lisa: 00:37:42

different strategies and different ways of being because I can recognize it myself.

Lisa: 00:37:47

It's interesting what you've been saying, Sarah.

Lisa: 00:37:49

I wouldn't say I had the same experience as you at all, but I have mostly

Lisa: 00:37:55

worked with men and I find it more comfortable often than with exclusively

Lisa: 00:37:59

women, but I actually think it's just great for both if you can have a mix

Lisa: 00:38:03

and if you can find out how different people Communicate and you can even

Lisa: 00:38:07

if you think I don't communicate that.

Lisa: 00:38:09

You can start to understand that maybe this is what we need more

Lisa: 00:38:12

facilitation of from a young age, but not necessarily with labels or

Lisa: 00:38:16

anything, but just, different ways of saying how does that make you feel?

Lisa: 00:38:20

How did they feel?

Lisa: 00:38:21

How can we get to a win situation?

Lisa: 00:38:23

Because, I'll also recognize in myself, I'm really interested

Lisa: 00:38:26

interested in the layers and different cultures, but also sometimes I catch

Lisa: 00:38:31

myself wanting to find a solution to my child's problem immediately.

Lisa: 00:38:36

Whereas actually I know that, and I think, what would I want?

Lisa: 00:38:39

It's actually wanting to be heard first anyway, and they'll

Lisa: 00:38:43

probably find a solution.

Lisa: 00:38:44

So I don't know, it's, it, we can all come at it from

Lisa: 00:38:48

different different perspectives.

Lisa: 00:38:49

And I think it'd be really helpful if we were not necessarily taught, but

Lisa: 00:38:53

given given opportunities to explore these different ways of communicating

Lisa: 00:38:58

and feel comfortable and not judged.

Lisa: 00:39:00

Now the judging again is really difficult.

Lisa: 00:39:02

I know I've got judgmental in my profile but, logically, I really

Lisa: 00:39:06

don't want to be judgmental.

Lisa: 00:39:08

Maybe that's why I try hard not to be.

Lisa: 00:39:10

Diversity and everything's really important value to me.

Lisa: 00:39:13

Yeah, just human brains so complex, isn't it?

Lisa: 00:39:17

But maybe if you have a, bring a certain level of awareness and consciousness

Lisa: 00:39:21

to it without having to be an expert and just yeah, explore different ways

Lisa: 00:39:26

of being and of talking to each other.

Sarah: 00:39:28

I may say something controversial on this, but do

Sarah: 00:39:31

we really need to change it?

Sarah: 00:39:32

Do we really need to change how a man or a female necessarily would

Sarah: 00:39:39

communicate, or if they have more masculine or feminine energy?

Sarah: 00:39:43

I feel like it's always an addition when you have a female in a team,

Sarah: 00:39:46

or if you have a man in the team, because it allows you to see things

Sarah: 00:39:49

in a different way, et cetera.

Sarah: 00:39:51

But I don't think that we need to change this in order to get to a

Sarah: 00:39:56

vulnerable place and get to a place of being able to work together.

Sarah: 00:39:59

It's more about Okay, how can we, when we have feelings people in the room, how can

Sarah: 00:40:05

we get them to accept and work together with people that are more physical in

Sarah: 00:40:09

the room versus the other way around?

Sarah: 00:40:12

Try talking, for example, with my partner.

Sarah: 00:40:15

He has ADHD and you ask him a question, what do you feel?

Sarah: 00:40:19

He will already feel judged in the fact that I've asked that question

Sarah: 00:40:23

because he doesn't talk about feelings.

Sarah: 00:40:25

Not in the same way that I would.

Sarah: 00:40:26

So just for me to make him come up with a feeling is already judging him and

Sarah: 00:40:32

already putting him on the defense.

Sarah: 00:40:34

So instead of me trying to force him to have a feeling which he doesn't

Sarah: 00:40:38

identify with or understand, it's about, okay, If you don't have a feeling,

Sarah: 00:40:43

tell me what's going on right now.

Sarah: 00:40:44

And what do you feel like, what is your brain doing, or

Sarah: 00:40:48

what is your reaction response?

Sarah: 00:40:50

And then how can we get this to work together?

Sarah: 00:40:52

Because where I might be triggered by a feeling, he might be just triggered

Sarah: 00:40:56

by a neu neurological response, and identifying that being able to talk

Sarah: 00:41:01

that language with that person and be so willing to understand that

Sarah: 00:41:05

they might have a different language or a different way of communicating

Sarah: 00:41:08

and a different way of reacting and we can all exist in the same space.

Lisa: 00:41:11

Yeah, sure, getting the best from collaborating and then

Lisa: 00:41:13

diversity is absolutely where we want to end up, I agree.

Lisa: 00:41:17

And then thinking from a change point of view of all the projects I've worked on,

Lisa: 00:41:21

you actually need all of those things.

Lisa: 00:41:23

You need somebody or some person's part of their brain who's

Lisa: 00:41:27

working on totally the logic.

Lisa: 00:41:29

You need somebody who's working on the emotions, you need all those elements,

Lisa: 00:41:33

whether it's one person or 20 or whatever, it doesn't really matter.

Lisa: 00:41:35

Yeah.

Lisa: 00:41:36

But how to harness the best of everyone and get where you want to go.

Branka: 00:41:40

I as well agree that we don't have to necessarily change.

Branka: 00:41:45

It's not even healthy, not supportive to address it in a way we need to change men.

Branka: 00:41:51

We need to change women.

Branka: 00:41:52

We need to change everything because with that, we are just reinforcing disbelief

Branka: 00:41:57

that something is wrong with them.

Branka: 00:42:00

I would say that nothing is wrong.

Branka: 00:42:01

It's just misaligned between one and the other.

Branka: 00:42:05

And at the same time, I would address this aspect that I found

Branka: 00:42:09

fascinating with the last conversation Rob had with men around men.

Branka: 00:42:15

And you brought it up again here.

Branka: 00:42:18

That they are actually waiting for instructions.

Branka: 00:42:21

What do I have to say?

Branka: 00:42:23

In this case, we can see how well trained they are to survive

Branka: 00:42:29

in a relationship with a woman.

Branka: 00:42:32

So not feeling safe to express anything.

Branka: 00:42:35

To some extent, I would say that when I was talking to different men, I saw

Branka: 00:42:41

and noticed that there are a lot of deep seated beliefs of what it takes to be a

Branka: 00:42:46

real man that are really misaligned with all that really man and human exactly is,

Branka: 00:42:52

but they are wired in their perception.

Branka: 00:42:55

And this can be a reason why they feel a lot of judgment right away, because

Branka: 00:43:04

every time a woman wants to make a step closer to them, it's not to judge them.

Branka: 00:43:10

It's not to attack them, but to know them.

Branka: 00:43:14

So through emotion, basically, we can better understand how someone functions,

Branka: 00:43:20

how someone experiences the world.

Branka: 00:43:22

After all, basically, all our experiences and all our actions are based on emotion.

Branka: 00:43:28

So if someone is basically looking for instructions, so I don't necessarily

Branka: 00:43:35

You need to say, what do you feel, you need to say what what is happening,

Branka: 00:43:40

but more of this sense, find a way to be honest with yourself.

Branka: 00:43:44

So not thinking about how to please others, not thinking about how to

Branka: 00:43:50

find the right words to make it work.

Branka: 00:43:52

Because with this, I believe that this problem is a big space we

Branka: 00:43:57

have made between one another.

Branka: 00:43:59

Because we are trying to figure out how the other works instead of talking.

Branka: 00:44:05

First thoughts, yeah, can be a little confusing, but more

Branka: 00:44:09

we let each other to share.

Branka: 00:44:12

And I have to judge this judgment.

Branka: 00:44:14

Like you said, brain are fascinating and yeah, we are wired to judge first.

Branka: 00:44:19

It's a natural

Sarah: 00:44:21

economy.

Sarah: 00:44:21

Like we want to able to figure out what our life is going to be

Sarah: 00:44:26

and how we decide to move forward.

Sarah: 00:44:29

We all want to be heard, seen, and respected.

Sarah: 00:44:32

And I think as humans.

Sarah: 00:44:33

We will get to that better place when we accept that you're going to

Sarah: 00:44:37

have different people in the same space that are looking at that space

Sarah: 00:44:41

differently, seeing something differently.

Sarah: 00:44:43

It goes to what is our linking intention of being in this space together?

Sarah: 00:44:47

How can we connect on the intention?

Sarah: 00:44:50

Of that space and that relationship or that, that particular scope

Sarah: 00:44:54

that we're working together on.

Sarah: 00:44:56

And then how can we have our own autonomy and moving forward to add value to that

Sarah: 00:45:02

particular intention that we all agree on.

Sarah: 00:45:05

It's not about changing each other or pushing each other to

Sarah: 00:45:08

drive a different way or have a different even view of the room.

Sarah: 00:45:12

You don't need to have a different view of the room as long as you find a way to

Sarah: 00:45:17

work together on whatever that intention is and in every space there's going to

Sarah: 00:45:21

be a different intention so taking the time to figure what that is and that we

Sarah: 00:45:25

all have the same passion towards it and we all want to contribute towards that.

Rob: 00:45:29

I think that really sums up.

Rob: 00:45:31

It sheds it in a new light.

Rob: 00:45:32

I think the judgementalism is really important.

Rob: 00:45:36

And what we need to move is from judgemental to

Rob: 00:45:40

understanding and acceptance.

Rob: 00:45:42

And then when we embrace the differences.

Rob: 00:45:44

It's like the old adage about six blind men go and see an elephant

Rob: 00:45:48

and they all have a different part.

Rob: 00:45:49

What we're looking for from communication.

Rob: 00:45:52

We want people to fill in the parts that we can't see.

Rob: 00:45:55

What comes to mind there is that judgmentalism is probably more dominant

Rob: 00:46:01

in men in the sense that there's some controversial research that, you know

Rob: 00:46:05

and it seems to play out, but it's controversial because it's been linked

Rob: 00:46:08

with biblical ideas of relationships that men typically will choose respect over

Rob: 00:46:15

love, women will choose love over respect.

Rob: 00:46:18

The idea of provider and status is very important in a man in

Rob: 00:46:23

status, in the sense of what you have and not so much who you are.

Rob: 00:46:28

It's your power or it's your stuff rather than your personal or it

Rob: 00:46:32

might be like your intelligence or it might be your whatever.

Rob: 00:46:35

Something that played into that and is a huge part of The problems

Rob: 00:46:40

that men have is the alpha myth.

Rob: 00:46:43

The idea of the alpha male was done in early 1970s with pack wolves, It was

Rob: 00:46:49

picked up by someone in the American White House and it became popularized.

Rob: 00:46:53

It really caught on.

Rob: 00:46:55

And so everyone's wanting to be an alpha male which is that whole Andrew

Rob: 00:46:59

Tate and every kind of dating guru to men is you need to be an alpha male.

Rob: 00:47:03

And then the author put out that it was a mistake.

Rob: 00:47:07

It was flawed.

Rob: 00:47:08

The only reason that it happened is because wolves will live in a family.

Rob: 00:47:13

But they put a bunch of different stranger wolves next in a

Rob: 00:47:17

group with scarce resources.

Rob: 00:47:19

So they fought for resources.

Rob: 00:47:21

Yeah, that that's really enlightening what you've said.

Rob: 00:47:23

Do

Sarah: 00:47:23

we need wait, cause you talked about respect value

Sarah: 00:47:27

versus, let's say, the love value.

Sarah: 00:47:29

I honestly believe that you can have four people in the same space

Sarah: 00:47:34

or five or whatever number it is.

Sarah: 00:47:36

And we all have a different need.

Sarah: 00:47:39

We all have our own values.

Sarah: 00:47:41

It's coming from our childhoods or upbringing, maybe our neurodiversity,

Sarah: 00:47:45

maybe coming from our sex.

Sarah: 00:47:46

But we all have a basic need.

Sarah: 00:47:49

Okay, so now you have a space, and let's say in that space, it happens to

Sarah: 00:47:52

be a male, it could be a female, and to their need their basis of thriving is

Sarah: 00:47:57

respect, and let's say there's another person in that same space, and their

Sarah: 00:48:02

need and their basis for thriving is love, or let's say it's collaboration.

Sarah: 00:48:08

When we talk about vulnerability, it's about knowing what our need is,

Sarah: 00:48:13

and Finding a way to meet each other in that same space and make sure that

Sarah: 00:48:18

person is getting what they need in our collaboration together so that

Sarah: 00:48:23

we can get to that basis of what we want to work on together because

Sarah: 00:48:28

we have a similar intent from this relationship or working together, etc.

Sarah: 00:48:33

Everyone's values in that space need to be honored in a way.

Sarah: 00:48:37

Otherwise, you're going to feel like you're not thriving.

Sarah: 00:48:40

If I'm working together, and I have many times worked in the same

Sarah: 00:48:44

space with someone that has a core value of respect, then I know that,

Sarah: 00:48:49

and I'm aware of that, what do you need from me to feel respected?

Sarah: 00:48:53

Now, this is what I need from you to feel loved.

Sarah: 00:48:55

And as long as we find a way to give what that other person needs so that

Sarah: 00:49:00

we can collaborate, so that we can get to that basis of what our joint

Sarah: 00:49:05

intent is, You have a peaceful room.

Sarah: 00:49:06

It's not about taking out the respect from one and taking out the lever and

Sarah: 00:49:10

the other shifting it or whatever.

Sarah: 00:49:11

Everyone's values in that space need to be honored.

Sarah: 00:49:15

And then you've got a group of people which feel they can thrive and

Sarah: 00:49:20

because they can thrive and they're having their own autonomy to be

Sarah: 00:49:23

in that space and choosing to work on that joint intention together.

Sarah: 00:49:26

That's when you get the magic.

Sarah: 00:49:28

That's when you get everyone feeling good about being in that space.

Lisa: 00:49:31

Yeah, because then the loss that somebody has is not

Lisa: 00:49:34

a loss around a core value.

Lisa: 00:49:36

It's more of a periphery loss and it doesn't have to be much so and it

Sarah: 00:49:40

could be that you're thriving shifts over time.

Sarah: 00:49:42

Maybe you are a man, let's say with respect and you hang out with three

Sarah: 00:49:47

people that have love and communication as their core values and over time,

Sarah: 00:49:51

You start to also need that in your future interactions with people.

Sarah: 00:49:56

People will change when they feel honored and they feel like their person

Sarah: 00:50:01

as a being is accepted and okay in that space, they will shift and change all on

Sarah: 00:50:06

their own by seeing how it is to honor other people's values in that space too.

Sarah: 00:50:11

And, oh, I like that one too, and I think I might need that too in order to thrive.

Lisa: 00:50:15

Yeah, because values do change, that's right.

Lisa: 00:50:17

But I also think, I think you're spot on there, Sarah, but I think sometimes to

Lisa: 00:50:21

get to that point of knowing what your values are, never mind what somebody

Lisa: 00:50:25

else's values are, can be quite tricky.

Lisa: 00:50:28

And that's when you would get a it that gets into the core.

Lisa: 00:50:31

Yeah.

Lisa: 00:50:31

What is that?

Lisa: 00:50:32

The beginning?

Lisa: 00:50:33

Yeah.

Lisa: 00:50:33

That's a massive project, but yeah, that's where we wanna get to.

Lisa: 00:50:36

Amazing.

Lisa: 00:50:37

Yeah.

Rob: 00:50:37

That's my model of conflict.

Rob: 00:50:39

To become a unified team you have to align your personal objectives so that

Rob: 00:50:45

they become the same as the collective, and then it's a change of identity.

Rob: 00:50:50

And then you can change from an individual.

Rob: 00:50:53

Because Until you change your identity to that of the collective.

Rob: 00:50:56

The reason people change their identity is because they get more from the collective.

Rob: 00:51:00

And until they get that, they're going to have divided goals because

Rob: 00:51:03

traditionally people have used shame and it's Oh, we'd be a team player.

Rob: 00:51:07

I'll stop being selfish.

Rob: 00:51:08

Humans are built to want what they want and they crave something.

Rob: 00:51:13

And if you're not going to give them what they crave, they're not going

Rob: 00:51:16

to join because they get what they want from their individual goals.

Rob: 00:51:20

Instead of

Sarah: 00:51:20

saying changing identity, I believe people can keep their identity

Sarah: 00:51:25

and honor their personal value, but make sure that intention is the same.

Sarah: 00:51:31

That we all are seeking to reach something and maybe I'm getting

Sarah: 00:51:35

something different out of it than you are, but I believe when we step

Sarah: 00:51:39

away from let's change each other's identity or we have to change to the

Sarah: 00:51:43

collective because that stresses me out.

Sarah: 00:51:45

If I'm joining the space here and I have to change my identity in order

Sarah: 00:51:48

for us to be able to work together.

Sarah: 00:51:50

That's going to prevent me from being able to make progress.

Rob: 00:51:53

Okay.

Rob: 00:51:54

It's probably a terminology difference, but I'm

Sarah: 00:51:57

guessing that,

Rob: 00:51:58

But for me, we have levels of identity.

Rob: 00:52:00

So we have ourself, we have as a couple, as a family, and as a

Rob: 00:52:04

tribe, and we identify with things that underlying we see ourself in.

Rob: 00:52:09

And so it's a shifting so that you still have all but without

Rob: 00:52:13

digressing too much on that.

Rob: 00:52:14

So we've covered a lot.

Rob: 00:52:15

And I think we could go on for a day, but in respect of everyone's

Rob: 00:52:20

time, I want to be able to wrap up.

Rob: 00:52:22

So from the perspective of you're working in a team, you're in a team

Rob: 00:52:26

or someone is maybe struggling or for men within that kind of environment.

Rob: 00:52:32

Thinking about all the things that we've discussed or maybe something out of that.

Rob: 00:52:36

i'd like to go around and think about What is what advice tips or

Rob: 00:52:41

if someone was struggling what would you suggest that they might look at?

Rob: 00:52:45

If someone came to you as a leader as a you know someone you're doing some work

Rob: 00:52:49

with on change or Emotionally, what would be something that you would look at?

Rob: 00:52:54

So i'll start.

Rob: 00:52:55

What shifted for me?

Rob: 00:52:56

In the discussion today two things is to be able to look at the judgmental

Rob: 00:53:01

thing, why do men feel more judged?

Rob: 00:53:04

And I think some of that comes, so if we, so I think some of

Rob: 00:53:08

that is maybe a biological thing.

Rob: 00:53:09

When we look around, we look at where we evolved from physically,

Rob: 00:53:13

it's from hunter gatherers.

Rob: 00:53:15

Typically, men, as far as we know, were hunters and I remember reading

Rob: 00:53:20

an anthropologist who went out and studied like native tribes that

Rob: 00:53:25

still live in a quite nomadic way.

Rob: 00:53:27

And he said all the men were like silent because if they made a

Rob: 00:53:30

noise that the prey would hear.

Rob: 00:53:32

So they were, men would be out for the day and they would not

Rob: 00:53:35

say a word with each other.

Rob: 00:53:36

He went out with the women, and the women were, they were gathering,

Rob: 00:53:39

and they had the kids, and they were all chatting, and they were eating,

Rob: 00:53:42

and it was such a social occasion.

Rob: 00:53:44

So I think some of that is, is wired, is that if we look at women as being

Rob: 00:53:48

gatherers, the women went out, and they were certain to get something.

Rob: 00:53:52

Back then there was equality, because women provided 50 percent of the

Rob: 00:53:55

food, because often the men would come back, From the hunt without any food.

Rob: 00:54:00

Women always had something, but when men came back, it was a bigger haul so I'm

Rob: 00:54:04

thinking there would be being the hero.

Rob: 00:54:06

Who's been the one who killed the animal would put a ranking system where it's

Rob: 00:54:10

been a gatherer, everyone brought pretty much the same amount of food back.

Rob: 00:54:14

So it's that idea off the judgmentalism where that comes from in men

Rob: 00:54:19

on the idea of that playing out in masculine feminine energies.

Rob: 00:54:24

I

Lisa: 00:54:26

would say, there's a lot involved, but a really good starting point is

Lisa: 00:54:30

thinking about what matters to you, what your values are, what matters to you

Lisa: 00:54:33

and what matters in the project or the thing that you're doing at the moment.

Lisa: 00:54:38

And then from a change management point of view, this to life as well.

Lisa: 00:54:42

Is look at other people involved and try to work with them to find

Lisa: 00:54:45

out what matters to them and find some common ground because it

Lisa: 00:54:50

will look different for everyone.

Lisa: 00:54:51

And if you can try and get what your, values are straight and then find

Lisa: 00:54:56

out what matters to other people.

Lisa: 00:54:58

That's a good place to start and value everyone's contribution.

Lisa: 00:55:02

And even when there's someone who's very resistant or there are problems

Lisa: 00:55:06

that it can be useful because there will be a grain of truth in there.

Lisa: 00:55:10

There will be something that you can use there, which will make the

Lisa: 00:55:13

solution or what you're doing better.

Lisa: 00:55:15

So it's about small steps as well.

Lisa: 00:55:18

Don't try to do everything at once.

Branka: 00:55:19

I would touch to where I ended before and it goes

Branka: 00:55:23

well with what you asked.

Branka: 00:55:24

So I believe that, in certain way our brains are natural fact the judge and

Branka: 00:55:30

these judgments can come from those times when basically tribes had to

Branka: 00:55:35

judge pretty fast if someone they met can be dangerous to their tribe.

Branka: 00:55:41

Or is it safe to let them in?

Branka: 00:55:43

So it was again survival.

Branka: 00:55:45

And today we face all of us.

Branka: 00:55:49

We face a lot of judgment.

Branka: 00:55:51

We are basically overflown with this.

Branka: 00:55:54

This is why I So regularly mentioned and support with compassion

Branka: 00:56:00

because I believe that the opposite of judgment is compassion.

Branka: 00:56:03

So that we notice, like Lisa beautifully said, first of all, we need awareness

Branka: 00:56:08

and understanding that the judgment is coming and being conscious enough to

Branka: 00:56:13

stop it and try to become curious and compassionate no matter what it is.

Branka: 00:56:18

But to the point of you what you mentioned, why there is so much judgment

Branka: 00:56:24

towards men, I would say in my work as an environment coach, I always teach that

Branka: 00:56:30

these judgments we have towards the world or we fear that are thrown on us are in

Branka: 00:56:37

core essence our self judgment we have.

Branka: 00:56:40

So it's a projection we see and.

Branka: 00:56:43

I would always advise that the first step is to explore why this judgment

Branka: 00:56:49

even so what is it judging and we can do that only from the space of compassion.

Branka: 00:56:56

So having enough space to admit to yourself, I am judging this

Branka: 00:57:01

and maybe I don't even know why.

Branka: 00:57:03

Maybe it's connected with this alpha male syndrome, or maybe it's connected

Branka: 00:57:08

with many different conceptions that were built and thrown upon you.

Branka: 00:57:13

And that doesn't mean that your value or worth is any decreased.

Branka: 00:57:17

That doesn't mean that you have less power if you don't have all those

Branka: 00:57:24

things that society told you to do.

Branka: 00:57:26

So I believe in essence, we need to find the way that a man can

Branka: 00:57:32

feel confident and enough and empowered with what it is already.

Branka: 00:57:39

Like I often say, it's setting your power.

Branka: 00:57:42

Yeah, that does not mean that you don't have a power within you.

Branka: 00:57:45

That just means that certain emotions, judgments, predispositions,

Branka: 00:57:50

and such are hiding it.

Branka: 00:57:51

And you are basically shying your talent and potential away because you

Branka: 00:57:56

don't feel quite safe to express it.

Branka: 00:57:59

And the more a man addresses this inner judgment, the easier it becomes to

Branka: 00:58:06

actually express themselves and become confident enough to show what they know

Branka: 00:58:12

and at the same time listen to others because this is another big struggle

Branka: 00:58:18

men have because like you said they were expected to know it all they were

Branka: 00:58:21

expected to have the last say they were often lead leaded by a woman in behind.

Branka: 00:58:29

And now, instead of this leading and helping from a woman, men are

Branka: 00:58:34

often faced with maybe dominance, maybe competition and such.

Branka: 00:58:41

And this makes a man's struggle even bigger and deeper.

Branka: 00:58:46

So more compassion less judgment, even if the judgment is noticed

Branka: 00:58:50

and remember and notice yourself.

Branka: 00:58:53

That's You're a human.

Branka: 00:58:54

We are all on this journey of learning of exploring.

Branka: 00:58:58

And if we can lose just a little bit of judgment, it can become a lot easier

Branka: 00:59:04

to drive in this world, maybe judgment towards others or within ourselves.

Sarah: 00:59:10

I would say.

Sarah: 00:59:11

If I were in a situation, which I needed to coach someone in

Sarah: 00:59:15

this going back to the, being the mediator hat on so imagining.

Sarah: 00:59:22

Two parents having a quarrel with each other.

Sarah: 00:59:25

They've just separated and they're fighting about nitpicky things.

Sarah: 00:59:29

You care too much about this and I need this, etc.

Sarah: 00:59:33

The mediator then says, Hey, what about the child?

Sarah: 00:59:36

You both love this child, right?

Sarah: 00:59:39

What does the child need?

Sarah: 00:59:41

So when we're talking about working together.

Sarah: 00:59:44

What is our joint purpose?

Sarah: 00:59:45

What can we all get behind and say we all care about this?

Sarah: 00:59:49

Because as soon as we look at the purpose for this relationship, the

Sarah: 00:59:54

purpose for us existing in this space, we are able to re think about the fact

Sarah: 01:00:00

that we might be different people, we might have different ways of upbringing

Sarah: 01:00:03

the children in our, let's say, different households or something, but

Sarah: 01:00:06

in the end, we want happy children.

Sarah: 01:00:09

We want healthy Children.

Sarah: 01:00:10

We can agree on that.

Sarah: 01:00:12

And that's how we should work together.

Sarah: 01:00:14

What is our joint purpose?

Sarah: 01:00:15

Why are we existing in this space?

Sarah: 01:00:17

You may have several different purposes, depending on which

Sarah: 01:00:20

space you're standing in.

Sarah: 01:00:22

This always needs to align.

Sarah: 01:00:24

And then what do we need as individuals?

Sarah: 01:00:27

This is how we get vulnerable.

Sarah: 01:00:29

What is behind the issue that we're having?

Sarah: 01:00:32

So usually if someone's complaining about being micromanaged.

Sarah: 01:00:36

It may not be the micromanaging itself.

Sarah: 01:00:38

That's the problem.

Sarah: 01:00:39

It could be that they need more autonomy and what they are doing and behind

Sarah: 01:00:44

that they need more trust and behind that they were abandoned as a child.

Sarah: 01:00:48

So what is that core need?

Sarah: 01:00:51

Where is it coming from?

Sarah: 01:00:52

So that we can make sure that we can support each other in those

Sarah: 01:00:56

needs and that we can all thrive going towards the same purpose.

Sarah: 01:01:00

And this has nothing to do with male and female.

Sarah: 01:01:02

It has to do with just being human.

Rob: 01:01:03

Lovely words to end the call.