The Alpha Myth

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

A lot of the dating advice for men is essentially about how to be an alpha. A lot of the ideas of these kind of kind of adverts of you can be an alpha, too. It's about what do you need to change? This is what you need to do to be an alpha male and get all the girls. And it's even for the women. It's this is this is the kind of woman that you have to be to attract an alpha male.

So what is an alpha male regrows an alpha male is that this comes from wolf packs and an alpha male is the leader of the pack. He keeps his place by being the strongest, by being the most manly, most masculine Wolf. His choice of the women, he gets his choice. So as some of you know, I got a dog recently. And when you look at a dog training back when I had a dog, when we had a dog before, we are young children.

And so they did quite a lot of research. And what I found is basically training is based on dominance, fear. The idea that you have always win in a fight with a dog. You always have to keep him lower. You always have to make a lot of dating. Advice is about being an alpha male. A lot of female advice is how do you get an alpha male? As if the idea comes from the basis that if you're a man and you can be an alpha male.

You get everything you want, if you will, if you desirable enough as a woman, you can attract an alpha male and you'll get everything that you want. So where are you going with that dog training? A lot of it is based on dominance theory to be the alpha. And if not for that respect, you don't think he's the Alpha. He'll get stressed and he'll think like he can bite you and keep you in line. So there's all these kind of things like you never left behind.

You never let them win a fight. You you first. Well. So then when I was looking around the dog training, there's a lot. Okay, so first of all, I just want to go for another couple of things that. So we're going to go to. My Internet connection is unstable. Can you hear me? OK, let me know if I freeze up. OK, so we're going to go on a tangent that is kind of related, but one of the quirks of my personality types is I'm really logically pedantic.

Like, if something is untrue, it bothers me. You might have noticed. Okay, so. We live in a culture that's kind of democratic and the problem with democracy is that what it means is that what the masses understand becomes like the mass market is kind of you have to sort of dumb down a little because it's what's understandable. So when there's been analysis of American presidents, people like trump them because it's make America great again, if you can have like a three or four word slogan.

It makes it so simple when you look at Brexit, Boris's campaign was I can't even remember what it was, but it was really basic and simple. And so when you look at the best selling books, it's never actually the best book, but it's the easiest to consume, like the easiest to consume. But that's that's pretty good. So. There is a lot of stuff that goes about that isn't actually true. So who's heard about the detailed study of the three percent people who write their goals down?

So this is the study that's that's talked about in lots of popular books. And what I say is there was a study in Yale and three percent of the cohorts had written that goes down. And when they came back 20 years later, those three percent and more and were more successful than all the other 97 percent combined. So that study from Yale never actually happened. And Yell wrote some things that I don't know where this came from. It's not it's not true.

It's never happened. There's never been such a study. And so basically, it looks like it was in a couple of people like Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins and Fast Company did this research and they went to Tony Robbins and they said, well, why did you get it from this in your book? Like, Oh, we don't know, maybe Ziegler said it then, which is exactly. And I said, well, we can't know for sure.

He reads the lot. Tony Robbins, I went to Brian Tracy and he said, oh, well, that should be true. So there's this study that everyone looks at that's completely untrue. There's also another study on communication. And his study was originally done by bird whistle, like he's heard the story of only seven percent of communication is verbal and the rest is nonverbal. So there's like 38 percent. Tonality, 53 percent body language. Well, actually, the research was flawed.

What they actually what I actually did in the research was it was one word, what they got with this woman to say maybe in three different ways.

So they will.

So that's the reason why there's no language. So how about my husband, who was who did the analysis that this was all taken from? And he retracted it and he said, like, my findings have been misquoted. It's absurd to imply suggest that the verbal portion of all communication constitutes only seven percent of the message. So if I want to tell you that the eraser you're looking for is in the second decimal of one second for my desk, how could anyone contend that the verbal part of the message is only three percent of the message?

lpha male comes from research: 1930

Well, actually, I'm going to share the video. It's a short video, so it really accurate when describing most of the leaders of of wolf packs, because it implies the term implies that the wolves fought and competed strongly to get to the top of the pack. In actuality, the way to get there is merely by mating with a member of the opposite sex producing a bunch of offspring, which are the rest of the pack then and becoming the natural leaders that way, just like with a pair of humans producing a family instead of using the term alpha for a wolf, instead of saying alpha, male or female, scientists now tend to call wolves like that the breeding male and the breeding female.

wolves. I published a book in: 1970

at that book was published in: 1970

And you could call the top animal at that point the alpha. But that rarely happens in the wild, if ever. And so, you know, that would be one case where you could use it. In other cases where you have what we call a complex pack or a multiple pack with multiple breeders in Yellowstone, for example, their bunson packs that have had as many as three breeding females. And in that case, you can call the the top ranking female who would usually be the mother.

You can call that animal the alpha female. But, you know, looked at and the perspective of wolf packs in general around the world and all that rarely happens.

So the whole idea of. Alpha, alpha male, alpha female doesn't actually happen, it doesn't actually happen in naturally, but where alpha male can come in, is it more complicated to authorities so I can come in more complicated society like chimpanzees, chimpanzees care. They can have alpha males. But that's because the society has become more complex. And so now it is about this battle for resources. But actually the the alpha male is in chimpanzees is the one that can form the coalition is the one that can politically.

So often they talk about it's the strongest male, but often there's an older chimp behind the hind young male who is engineered the situation for the male to get a position. So the alpha male then has the. Has to become political. So there's another video that talks about the. Alpha males and chimpanzees, and essentially they say that when an alpha male is going to beat like he's going to fight for alpha male or has they become political, they start showing an interest in the children to win over the females.

They start offering favors. They start sharing food. So the idea of that, there's this one like this great person. And so, like when I was looking around the race, there is there's these groups to be alpha male. But the very idea of having a group to be alpha male is like, how can you have a group of the alpha male is the one like the top of it. And yeah, we're going to take you and we're all going to be alpha males.

How can you all be alpha males? So. There's this idea now romantic novels and films show this idea of the romance of the alpha male and really what it's about is. Like this wild man. That this woman is so captivating that she can tame him. And she can change him. It's really about an hour from I think an hour from now is about access to resources. An alpha male is supposed to supposedly someone who is successful, powerful, has status as mommy.

Has good genes, has confidence, Sirtis, but what's happened is people there's also like a myth of the great self-made man. It's like one of the George. I think the younger George Bush in his presidential run talked about how he was a self-made man. His dad was the president. He was born a millionaire. Donald Trump had most of his money given to him from his dad and he talks about being a self-made man. So but there is this idea which goes along with alpha male of being of like some people are better, some people are just born and they just have it.

And people talk about things like people like Mozart and Leonardo da Vinci and people like this as if they're different from everyone else. And I think Malcolm Gladwell and first Anders Ericsson, Malcolm Gladwell and I would call I think it is in the talent code and Outliers talks about. So Malcolm Gladwell talks about Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Larry Ellison from Oracle, and about how they became so wealthy because they. We're lucky to be born in a generation they had access to computers at an early age like Bill Gates used to code because his mom worked at college, he had access to a computer which no one had any kid code from like evening till three am every night for years.

And so he had that amount of practice knowledge at the time when computers became when technology became possible for computers to take off. So he was able to acquire it or to know to acquire the operating system. He been able to sell it in the same way Steve Jobs grew up at the right time in the right location, that he was able to take his design skills and create something. So Malcolm Gladwell talks a lot about hockey players, football players that often born within a few months.

And it's because the cut off for when they get picked for a team means that they're the ones who were born earlier, a bigger, stronger, therefore better when there's less skill involved. And so then they get picked up about 13. They get intense coaching for the next five years. So they they become so much better than the others. That's in the same way the things are, including talks about the talent coach talks about the Russian like there's a Russian academy that produces so many tennis players and it's because of the way that they train.

People aren't necessarily better, like there's no great man that's going to be the Alpha and there's no great person that's going to be self-made, but there are certain qualities and certain attributes that are more attractive. Now, with that said, does anyone want to share anything that they were discussing or any thoughts on the insights you have on the idea of. Alpha male, and I've got some sort of summit. I'm sorry I was late. I had to publish my gold chains and, you know, brush my chest down and all the other stuff, you know, before I came.

So I was a bit late. So I don't want to push back.

But first of all, have you done yoga in your meditation?

Breathing. That was this morning. It was this. I had to get up at 3:00 a.m., so. I mean, the way I think about it is that I don't fully agree that maybe that's not what you are saying, but I think some people are good at being self-made. And in some ways, take Donald Trump, for example. He has to start out with some amount of money, but he's made it into a heck of a lot.

And people like Alan Sugar and, you know, Virgin Atlantic Coast and all the rest of them, based off of some of them, are starting from a little humble beginnings, although more privileged to be on. And they've made them into some you know, they really increased their incomes, whether. One should aspire to be like them or not is another matter. So I think some people are better at doing certain things. And so that's a fact of life.

And, you know, and some of it you can get better by being loved, being in the right place, having the right knowledge and so on. And some of it because you have a natural back. So I reckon it's a combination of nurture and nature. But I think if somebody is wanting to be the best of the best in a destructive way and the stereotypical sense and the alpha male or female is. I can do what I want more or less, because I'm it, and therefore everyone has to like because I it I think.

That perhaps either says that they've got they're either full of themselves. Or they are very incompetent and all the they can put it is trying to impress others in some, you know, facade. First of all, I'm saying it and if that is impressing the other sex brothers, male or female, it doesn't really matter, then I think that probably shows that there is some character deficiency in the other other sex that they are attracted to that kind of a person who is clearly not displaying any good values.

Because it's not about being dominant in something. I mean, you know, I figured this out in terms of taking over the world. Maybe it was a requirement, a cut thing. But, you know, if you are just trying to get by in life and have a deep connection with somebody in a relationship, then perhaps wanting to fight. I mean, wanting to fight with the other person for dominance is not necessarily the thing to do. I mean, it would be silly to say you wanted your relationship in your fight.

And so I suppose the bottom line for me is that people aren't going to be good at things and, you know, good luck to them with that. And I wouldn't take anything away from people who work hard to achieve something so long as they did it with morals and that legally. But also at the same time, I think that if people are aspiring to be for something male or female or being attracted by that, I think that probably shows some form of character deficiency of both parties.

I think. Yeah, I mean, I think making money is a skill and. Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's people that are better at certain things. But when you look at Jeff Bezos. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg. They've all come from America, so you don't see someone from all or never heard of someone from Ethiopia or Vietnam who's come out with a multibillion pound company. So some of it is the fact that we we're in a position like that gives us the opportunities.

I mean, undoubtedly, I mean, like Jeff Bezos is a genius, like from his very first annual report, he showed exactly the model of what he was going to do. And to be able to do that is amazing. Elon Musk to do from PayPal to Tesla to Space X and to everything else he's in. But what I'm really talking about, the idea that the alpha male is like I've seen in Facebook, groups of. A lot of men just become misogynist and they say, oh, well, and if someone disagrees with them, it's like you're beater and.

It's like this. Like a lot of people I find in spiritual circles are like, I'm so much more spiritual, a lot of men get into this thing of I'm Alpha. And. So then the point I'm really trying to get at is there's this misguided idea of what it takes. To be a man successful in a relationship. And. What that leads to is a lot of men feel that they have to behave in a certain way and when one when people start to behave in a different way.

Then it like if people stop being themselves, that's where connection breaks down. And. When you feel that you have to play a role. That's what leads to disconnection, ultimately.

Shouldn't we look at confidence as a key part of this type of behavior or lack thereof or presence of you have people who don't look like the typical image of what a person person would be like and. If you were to dig beneath the surface, you may find a very insecure person and you can see somebody who doesn't fit the image or the perceived image of an alpha male, and yet still they're quietly confident. And in that respect, they are sure of themselves.

They exhibit a lot of the other characteristics that we would associate with an alpha male in terms of being able to lead to be sure of their decision making, take risks, et cetera, et cetera. Because face it, Jeff Bezos does not look like an alpha male. He's rather strange looking, I would not think of him as an alpha male, but he's successful and he does. And Elon Musk looks like a geek, Bill Gates worse. I mean, come on.

But we are all we are calling them all alpha males. You know, it's a cool man who. But you can see not with. Look at this poster. Go eat, sleep GameSpy Arama now from outrace. So full of life, you know.

No, I'm just saying that some people think that, well, as they say, a rich man. How is it always the same as a rich man, even if he's ugly? We'll get the girl right because he can't be active because he's got lots of money. Maybe that gives him confidence. Maybe so. He's actually an alpha male because he's got that knowledge behind him and he's got the money to back it up. So, yeah, maybe.

But it's contextual, isn't it? So, you know, if you put Bill Gates on a football field is not going to be out in any sort of way. It's like, look, Guanglie already, but you put him in a Texcoco and he's going to come out top. So it's context to I think the thing that stood out most from what Rob said and the one that I think applies most largely is that within chimps it becomes political. So my observation, I would say that the Alpha is able to have social cohesion, to be able to be subtly manipulative, meaning that he gets people to do what they want within that group or project or purpose.

And he retains a sort of distance, but also a level of likability that people are going to do things for him based on that. So. Yeah, I think it varies on the context and there are so many models, we can't just hold one model like, you know, the very basic model would have been the strongman who then got the girl and then the rich guy who got all the checks and then perhaps a more modern times, the smartest guy in the room who was able to maneuver the society in this world through his intellect.

Elon Musk's. So with that said, I feel it is all contextual where it's applied.

In the other video that I've got about the teams, it talks about one of rules about how when he when he got overthrown by a younger chimp, again, this was in captivity. So we don't know how how valid it is. But when he got overthrown, they would all the others came and they would feed him and the women would put things behind his back. And it was because they loved him, because he looked after them. And the old style of leadership tends to be like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, where they just scream at people and shout and people and.

They know better, but actually most of the best leaders are the ones who look after the package is the ones that the safest. And so when you look at wolves, actually the alpha is not the alpha wolf, but the breed of wolf. Is the one at the back. He watches the like the and now isn't the one who. Eats first, Nayoung, eat first, so the ones who are most loved, the ones who are most successful, are.

The ones who look after he can best look after the pack, so it's like you earn your right. From your ability to look after others. And I often remember there's a quote from Napoleon Bonaparte and Napoleon Bonaparte was the most powerful man in the world at this time, and then he got overthrown and he was exiled to Sardinia, where I think it was. And from there, he had a lot of time to reflect. And he said, I remember one of these quotes.

He said, people like me, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, we commanded great armies, we had great forces, we had great power. But as soon as we crumbled, like everyone forgot us. Look at Jesus Christ, and he said that that that man, he who had no army, fought no one, and yet he still has millions of people love him and follow him to this day, Yanase.

If you think that's all about what leads to power versus force, because the force it's about goes behind the fear, and if you think the real power, when you empower other people, the UN could achieve them, then you make them to do things in their own way. You actually dare support them, but, you know, do so damn. And that's when you are a real leader, a real leader. It's actually encouraging everybody. So then let them do it and let them do it, because that's how you earn trust by letting others do.

And did they lend themselves? They learn how to show how to be the best damn self. They spend enough time in their own personality. The confident with themselves, even if they need to be a week alone, just feed themselves, they'll OK with that. They not fear from themselves. So many people having inside that fear, they can't live with themselves. They have to be busy to not listen to voices that had that voice in the head.

It's a powerful face is I think, really there is a hierarchy of power. And the lowest form of power is physical force, because physical force only has any power. While. Well, it's different because once you actually use it. There's no way you can really go just like nuclear, a nuclear bomb only has any value at the threat because as soon as you use it, you've destroyed somewhere. So there's there's nothing you can do in the same way.

If someone scared of you from physical force, they'll avoid you that one day they'll do like they'll comply. But the point where you push them past that the force no longer has any threat to them. So threats like social like social force. Things like that, because underneath it so like if you look at it like, what do we use force now we have a police force and the police forces to back up the authority of the government or the queen.

And that's really a physical threat. But we don't come out straight away with the physical threat we come out with. You're going to get this punishment. And so what you've got is you've got layers of threat like this, which is layers of force. And that's really the more layers of force that you have, the stronger things become, because like Hannah says, once you actually use force, so like China, when they used force, you then have like the Tiananmen Square incidents.

And so. Like as a country, we only know history is based on conquering other countries and pillaging and getting rich off the wealth of other other places, and we haven't taken over another country or invaded another country for one hundred and fifty two hundred years. And it's because we thought we would lose. Political capital. By using force. And so the more complex the society becomes, the more it's about politics and that politics is backed up by force, it has to be.

But raw force is like the it's showing weakness because if someone uses violence, it means they got nothing else. It's kind of gone off from another tangent. But I think I really point that's something valid in that. So we've got two sides. We've got men feel that they need to be something, an alpha. But then there's the idea of women, women, women, women who are. Fearing that they warned. An alpha and so so what's that about?

What is the alpha characteristics that women are attracted to?

I can speak for myself. I've been for a while. Hello. Nice to see you again. Yeah, great. To me, I think it's about being a human being, not a human doing. It's not about being in a role. It's about into changing roles at a particular time in a particular context. So I'll give you a specific example. If I fell over and hurt my leg and injured and needed to go to hospital. What I found attractive is about one of my boyfriends is that he immediately took control of the situation and it was calm and was caring and just did the two.

And he didn't kind of fret or panic. Not that it's anything wrong with being scared at all. That's quite awful to say. I feel scared and I'm going to do it anyway. I think that's quite common in our office to feel the fear and do it anyway. But yeah. And then and then on another occasion, it might be me that does that, you know, that I've got an alpha male is what I'm an alpha male, I think.

But I can also be a very vulnerable, caring I've got this the whole range. Like if you had a piano and you took all the keys away, it would make a very good piece of music, which I think is like being a whole human being with a whole range of feelings, the whole range of emotions, and then being able to be anything at any particular time. You've got a really strong team. If you go if, say, my ex-boyfriend really supports me about being a big alpha sometimes and then I can be really feminine at other times.

And that's a really strong team right now. You know, it's not stuck in a groove.

Yeah. OK, thank you.

I think it's an acknowledgement that we are complex. There are several layers to us and more so in the past, some of our attributes weren't allowed to shine through. And I'm speaking of men in particular. It's not that they didn't have those characteristics, I don't think suddenly men have grown breasts or some something new and different. I think that social conditioning suppressed certain attributes from being hailed as being something that is admirable in men. And maybe in the days when you had to lift your swords and go and decapitate and do all sorts of things, you had to bury some of those attributes in order to do those kinds of things.

But we I think now we are expected to show more of ourselves. We are giving each other the freedom and the space to do so. And it's as Sam said, sometimes you can show some characteristics and I can show the other others as a female. And I think that's what we are doing now. It's it's a bit of a song and a dance. And I don't know that we need to decide that this is not manly and this is manly versus what's feminine and what's not feminine.

I think we are all allowed to express things along that whole spectrum of emotions and and realities.

Yeah, I think there is there is an element of biology and an element of. Attraction isn't something that we did consciously. And so I think I think the appeal. If you look at romantic heroes, is I think there is an element of dominance and I think that speaks to something of something that Sandra alluded to in women weren't always like particularly women weren't always allowed to be sure their sexuality and what it does is takes charge. And so then. It's like it makes it OK for the woman to be sexual, because it's kind of an overpowering in that sense.

And so so there's that sense where it allows a woman to express herself. I think it's like Sarah said of someone who take charge when you need them to someone who can make decisions, someone who can make you and make the woman feel from being very sexist. And not all relationships are male, female in the room talking to mainstream. There's that characteristic of make them feel safe, not like I think not being another child, that the woman has the mother.

Carl.

I just noticed a couple of mistakes in language and also share something I kind of picked up some time ago. But do you think that dominance necessarily is synonymous with what we're describing as alpha? But somebody can be dominant without being an Alpha. Somebody could dominate a room or a group or physically that doesn't necessarily give them alpha status.

Doesn't mean I like what I was trying. The message I was trying to get across is the whole idea of alpha is misguided. I think the reason being Alpha you talking about Alpha is Boris Johnson, because that's he has got has been voted by everyone else to be the figurehead of power. And we think Boris Johnson is the alpha male. I've seen him on the rugby pitch again, five year old son.

Thierry. I said he does have a nice girlfriend, I will say, which is a tad too young for him, but let me see if I can share my screen once I come home and I just got permission. Hang on. Let me change the settings.

OK, so let's talk.

Yeah, I should have a picture of Boris Johnson on the ground for me.

Where can you see that he just is changing. Yes.

Yeah. So this is a model I'm not saying is my model. I'm not necessarily agree, but take away, you know. Just in the words, if it what it espouses is the alpha masculinity is based on strength and female musk alpha is based on goodness and these are sort of like the qualities in between. It does also say that there needs to be a balance of feminine and masculine within this, but more predominantly so for a man, it would be strength, confidence, assertiveness, energy for achievement, endurance, dignity, curiosity, decisiveness, focus and reason.

And you can see what's on the other side, females. And then on the other hand. But this is that model of strength, which is not very diverse or a full picture, things like being weak, self-loathing, angry, intimidated, boastful, reckless, indecisive and coward or cowardice. So, yeah, that was one of the models you were talking about with strength, wasn't it?

So I just really hope the divine. Yeah, I just really like the Hendricks's. I really can't listen to him because it's very like California. OK, see, I think when we're moving towards the age of choice, I think you can be whatever you want. I think there's this whole, like, gender fluid. I think one would be mesclun, family, whatever. I think really what I talked about is about above the line and below the line because there's always, like Carnel said, David Hawkins' idea of being above the line.

And I feel sorry. And I think what I think Carl Jung talked about the integration of the masculine and feminine, which is kind of what you're saying, propolis. Why not be like, why not go from feminine to masculine? It's not about becoming one pole, a thing like the two polar opposites, is it? It's got us into, I believe, in the integration of masculine and feminine to become like a whole human being. I think the more I've accepted both my masculine and feminine and the more ironic, the more softer I've become.

Not soft in the traditional feminine, but the more comfortable and confident I become in myself because I've accepted all of those parts. I think when people like men maybe think they have to be this idea of an alpha, ironically, they actually repress their true alpha male because I can't remember who it was just now. They said that to me, the Alpha is the one that sits back in the group with all the wisdom in the world, with all the experience, but not necessarily has to be pushing it on other people and on women.

Watch, you know, like the observation. It's not about intellectual verbalization. It's about sitting back and really observing. Must be my experience, quietly confident.

You know, I think for me. I think you have a blueprint and it's about creating finding who you are, creating the environment and the context for you to bloom in the best way that you can. Like if you're a plant like you, if you like, using the analogy of a plant seed, a plant just in the right context, it just blame some blossoms. And so it's about being more of who you are rather than sign of masculine and feminine.

I need to be listening to this. And I think we've come from that. Like I talk about the age of control and we've come from a time when how many homosexual people had to hide what they were and how they felt because they didn't fit this idea. How many people? We weren't able to express themselves because of the structures and the values of society, and I think it's really about now, it's not about trying to amount, but it's trying to find your way.

I'm always reminded of Michaelangelo when he was sculpting. I said, like, where do you like how do you create this? How do you make this thing? He said, I didn't like it. It was already there. I just chipped away the surplus and I think. The idea of like when people are dating, looking at these dating advice and they're gonna need to be funny to do this, I think the biggest problem in relationships is people think they need to manipulate external circumstances when really the biggest block is inside them and it's understanding the block that's stopping you from being who you want and having the relationship that you want.

And in the same way as Michaelangelo, you get away the surplus we have to take away from our operating system, the banks that hold us back. So this idea, like in the graphic that showed of being weak and being whatever is because we're scared and we scared because it's something that someone put in our observations that misguided of us growing up. Yanase.

It's quite a few things are right. Look, you'll see. However, I would describe it's slightly different way. I think what everybody does, they try what others are doing rather than. Check what the others are doing. Learn from that reflected and do it in your own way and try it in your own way, because you can only learn as much from others as much you see. You need to make it in your own way in order to fight for your belief system and for your body, for your mentality, for you or for your whole self.

As I always say to my team, I can give my knowledge, my shirt, but they have to do it for themselves.

Yeah, I think I'm. There was a lot of luck in business, there was a lot of Japanese influenced things like Koyczan, Kanban, all of those techniques and things that management consultants studied in in Japan and then tried to bring over, a lot of them failed because they didn't understand, like he was organic to Japanese culture, which was very different to the American culture here. And so when I translated it, it didn't really work in a lot of cases.

Yeah. And so you remember there's a kind of like saying like the next the next big business won't be Amazon or Facebook is going to be something completely different. But everyone's you know, like when Facebook became big, everyone tried to copy that and there was all these other social networks. So that's been done in the same way Amazon's been done. But it's about what what's in you and what's organic for you and how can you create the right circumstances for that?

Can I just go back to Karl's list, are women expected to be the Holy Mother, whatever all the characteristics of the top side there is talking about the divine, you know, as being good. I'm female. I'm assertive. Is that bad for me then using that list? Because that's over on the other side in the male column.

It's just the list is not gospel. It's not that it's not about that is just a list. It's what it it's it's it's it's what it is describing in general that are desirable shouldn't be or seem to be desirable attributes of the feminine person at the top. It's six to 40 percent split it. So both that. Yeah, but that but if I just look at the list and maybe I need to look back at the list again, but my initial thinking was, oh my God, I don't fit that list.

I'm not sure this lovely, cuddly, submissive, wonderful. I am. You know, I am I speak my mind, I am assertive, I know what I want. I don't fit into that. I mean, nobody is going to tell me what to do and we don't be arguing. And that's not true, actually, because I can be told, if I respect you and I know that you you mean me well, I will. I'm very easy.

But if I don't, I'm going to argue with you until the cows come home. I'm not even in. But so that list just doesn't work for me, if you see what I'm saying. And I just think that we need a new list, another list to describe of those of us who sit somewhere between the male and the female. Sandra, I would like to join to your list. Thank you, sir.

But look, the reason why I'm saying this is just that I think that if we conform to those things, we are building in some negative feelings in us as females, that if we find ourselves not having too many of those attributes, then what are we doing wrong? Where you know what's wrong with us? And if we are perceived to be like that, then maybe we are. We need to change. And I'm not going to change. I'm too old and I use this excuse already, I do I like Rob's reason for bringing this up was because of the false information out there about impressionable people who are assuming, oh, I'll get this if I become this Alpha or this model.

But I don't know who's falling for that. But, yeah, I've heard these guys. I've seen them. It's it's interesting, but it's it's all sort of very loose crap psychology. And what they're usually getting is just getting late with simple mind tricks as opposed to sort of long term relationships, from what I can see. But yes, it's a good thing for people to be aware of that this is a paradigm that stops people from really coming from their heart or who they are genuinely and trying to create a model in their mind of what they think will work or create an impressionable person on somebody else.

I think really, if you look at if you were to look at commercials, I don't know. I mean, does anyone watch TV anymore and see commercials? But if you look at the commercials, it's like it's appealing to to women for makeup cosmetics. It's appealing to Men for Watches Cause, which plays on the idea that you as a man, you've got to be successful as a man. You've got to be seen to be in control as a woman.

You've got to be beautiful and you've got to be now you've got to be a great woman and do the housework and have the perfect kids. But. So this is underlying. But what it all plays on is an insecurity that. All of us have. That we are unlovable, that there's something that's going to stop us from being loved. And. The truth. Is that if there is something that's stopping you from being loved? It's inside is your belief that it's not going to happen?

Is your belief of there's something about you that's unlovable? And we've all grown up being told to shut up, being told that we're not good enough, not as good as we are, probably not as good as whoever, that we're not living up to our parents or whatever is. And so there's this fragility. And when there is that sense of. Like Shane. That creates like the new empress, the emperor's new clothes, you know, like the fairy tale where the emperor is naked, but is told that only smart people can see him in his clothes.

And until a kid shouts out, no one says it because no one wants to be seen to be stupid in the same way, no one wants to reveal their vulnerabilities because there's a sense of shame in them. And that fear. Is what prevents us from having the relationships that we want. And because we frustrate we look at other reasons and we blame dating sites, we blame this no good men out there. There's no no one's interested women around the after this and.

All of these things are really just fires that we vent of frustration, but it's really and that makes us vulnerable to believe that I am missing something. I need to be an alpha male. I need to be the woman that attracts alpha male. I need to do this. And so that's really the way that people sell to us. And most of the economy is driven on keeping up with the Joneses, getting laid or having a partner and being successful.

We're going to get a promotion if we do this. If we have this, if we perceived in this way and so people feel that they're not enough. When really? It's this systematic, systematic story that makes us not reveal our sense of shame. And so we never really Tarcoola. And that is really the block that holds us back from everything that we want. Because if we didn't have that, we wouldn't be afraid of public speaking, we wouldn't be afraid of just being ourselves.

And so that's so many of the things that we buy, just like the old thing of we go to work to buy things, to impress people that we don't really care about. And it's all driven on a sense of insecurity. And so all of these things that you have to be something to to be loved, you have to achieve this, you have to have this, all of this. Only works when there's this whole Emperor's New Clothes thing, but as you say, many of us need well, not many I think most, if not all of us.

We need approval from others for our actions, for various things, for our successors, et cetera. But there are some people who find it very difficult to acknowledge people when they do well, when they act in a certain way. And to my mind, when you're in a relationship where in your you cannot be applauded, you cannot your strengths cannot be acknowledged. And it's not a prison fest where, you know, you're seeking validation every step of the way.

But just to be acknowledged for what it is, I think it takes a very big toll on you eventually, especially if on the outside you're getting other signals, because at home that's if you are if you are comforted at home and you are comfortable and you feel secure at home, it is easier for you to deal with the difficulties outside. But if I told me or not validated because, yes, we can feel confident in ourselves that we are good at this and we're good at that, but nonetheless it is it is cemented when people who are near and dear to you acknowledge that this is a part of you.

You actually believe it? It's not flattery like when somebody's outside at all, but you also got to know. But when those that are nearest and dearest to you say to you, you you feel that it's been said with sincerity and that it is believed. And so it reinforces your sense of self and self and self worth.

Yeah, I know that you're not talking about this, but I just want to point this out is relevant comes to mind when you look at Facebook and Instagram. The popular huge popularity is like the biggest social. Social movement since the Internet. Is entirely based on the idea of needing validation, and I know that's what we're talking about, but it's part of like if I'm trying to put what you said in the context and I think I think there's a subtle nuance to this in that, yes, you need to be acknowledged, but not even but not for success, but just for who you are and where.

I used to talk about respect for those I've seen in a while, learn to respect. What I really mean is. Is someone who sees who you are an appreciation for who you are. Because I think the other side of it is that. We're all seeking validation, like you say, we're all seeking validation. And sometimes that validation is. It is because of a lack of belief in ourself. So I think there's a nuance. I think that we we need to be appreciated for who we are.

But there's also, in some cases. Some people are using that. I know that you're talking about. It's like the Gutman's idea of the kicking, like the relationship is a safecracking from from a harsh world. So. Yeah, I think that, like when we talked about feeling safe and sane, but there's also some people looking for a relationship. And they're looking for validation and get in on Facebook and again, and they're looking for a relationship to validate them, to compensate.

So so, yeah, we need honest appraisal, but sometimes people want. Validation. Because they don't have it themselves. I think Carl was first and then Carl.

It was just an interesting comment you made about saying the validation and acceptance and the people should be accepted, but. Unconditional love is usually something a parent child relationship. Do you think, especially looking at divorce statistics, we have the mindset and the skill set to appreciate somebody, let's say, who does have undesirable characteristics and qualities and say, well, I just accept that. And that's how you want. That's OK, considering that we are bred to be self-centered individuals through marketing and consumerism.

So I just find a little bit of this whole thing around. Oh, I accept everything, but that's the reality.

No, I don't think you accept the unacceptable. Because that's what someone is, you accept the essence of what someone is, but this is the line when someone's operating below the line, that's unacceptable and it's because they're lacking something, because they're lacking some emotional capacity. So. I think you have to look at it in context, so a man who's not slept for weeks, who's doing all the work on the husband's out and whatever when he operates below the line.

Is because she's got no resources left. So it's not about accepting the unacceptable. But is. Seeing the core of who someone is. The core of who someone is. Is is is unchangeable. So that's this is where people get in a relationship going. Well, I like all of these, but this one thing, if we can just change this one thing, you'll fit into my jigsaw. And I think the big paradigm a lot of people have is that they have if my life is going to be perfect.

Daniel Schlosser's jigsaw is the perfect way of describing this. And what they want to do is they're trying to fit this piece into their jigsaw. And it's not fitting that we just change this. We change this and it will slow in and we'll be perfectly happy because this is my vision. But someone else has got the same vision and they just want to fit you into their jigsaw. And so rather than have the jigsaw. It's. The whole basis of the jigsaw is a flawed idea, and so everything that you do from there creates.

The need to control. Whereas if you look at people as Lego bricks. And you build the relationship. And what you're doing is. So if someone does something that's unacceptable, then for you being honest, and I think that that graphic was about you're going to be honest and assertive in all of these things. At your best, and so if someone's unacceptable is about saying, OK, what's up? Why are you behaving like that? You know what's going on?

How can I help you? And then when you understand what's coming behind that, you can understand. Why, and then you can work out and then it's working out, is it really who they are or is it just because they're having a shitty day? And when you can figure that out and you get to the essence of people? Then you have to drop your drink. You have to drop your dream and stop trying to fit someone into your jigsaw and take the Lego bricks of who you are and build something new, build something that you wouldn't have with anyone else.

Because it's the essence of you and the essence of them. So it's not accepting. Good and bad. Accepting the essence. You know, the essence of who they are might not fit your dream. It might not be the jigsaw, but. That dream is an illusion, and if you fear, if you take who they are. So being in a relationship, you should so often say you shouldn't have to grow, you shouldn't have to change for a relationship, but a good relationship will change you because the other person, it's not about just taking it back unless you like, your bloodline will stop.

And in a good relationship, you should have to work out, go. Maybe not in the moment to afterwards. Yeah, OK. I was just I was having a bad day. I'd had a lot of stress at work and I was worried about this. I shouldn't have done that. And then but what that does is it going deeper. It allows you to connect to who they really are. And then the essence is you have to accept the essence if someone's being shitty.

Then no, you shouldn't accept that by accepting that, yes, just makes them worse because they think it's OK. It's like mate with the dog downstairs. If I let him do whatever he wants one, I'll be beaten to shreds and he'll just be a savage like he has to learn how to function. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think what you're saying is it boils down to communication, understanding, along with some level of reasonable boundaries, like not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you you.

She, like the whole thing of the relationship above line, is about freedom, you let someone be who they are, but you navigate according to that. So I don't like I don't think you should ever change anyone. But you tell someone this is unacceptable. This is I don't accept this. And then you can talk about it, about whether it's unacceptable or whether they don't. But it's. Yes, you can't change someone, but you can tell them what's unacceptable for you.

She can't control their behavior, but you can control how you navigate with the. Nicole, did you still have your hand up? So I went on for Kuala. Although I think you fall asleep, no comment.

I don't know. I was just thinking earlier that everything that everyone was saying was reminded me of competition. I guess this is relevant. I don't necessarily know if it's relevant, but people competing with other people. So I remember back in for my studies and certain jobs where you were always encouraged to compete with everyone else. But I never really got that feeling. And I've really I just didn't get it, to be honest. It's like, oh, I'll compete with myself almost to be the best that I can be, but I want to compete with those people.

Um, there's something else I was going to say from that to morph, and I can't believe you remember that.

So, you know, I think that's important. I think the idea of Alpha. Is encouraging competition.

I don't think, I think.

Some people are competitive, I think, particularly men, the only way I say the only way, but the main way I can motivate myself is from competition so that the only way I can go, I can go into the gym again, to the gym or enjoy is knowing that I'll be better. And so I think competitiveness is like a personality type and it works for motivation, but it's but I think the whole idea of the alpha male alpha myth.

Makes people so what you've got, and I think Neil Strauss is probably the best, the best covetousness, because he's he went into that whole pick up community and became the Alpha and did all this stuff, but. Yes, it becomes false because there's a lot of preening or a lot of posturing. So there's this competitiveness that's healthy, kind of this competitiveness, which is counterproductive, and I think the idea of the alpha male CEO you've got, if you've got a group of guys who are all trying to be alpha, they're going to be competitive and they're going to be dicks because they're all going to be trying to compete and show who's weakest and who's whatever.

And it's even like lineis like screenshots I took and it's like has to be an alpha. It's you go in and you shake your hand. You it's like you stand in a certain way. And I've seen it as if you have to stand like this and you have to stand at the door and pause and it's just ridiculous like. That's going to impact over 20 years. Is that even going to get someone like let alone a 20 year relationship?

Then the performance takes over. Some people get stuck in the performance and they don't realize that they are stuck and so their own personal development has been stymied by keeping all of this attention and trying to hold the performance because like anything else, after a while, it gets boring to the onlookers and you need to keep adding to the act. And then there's nothing worse than an aging peacock with its feathers falling out, trying to preen as though he's still got the ball.

What happens when he becomes kind of desperate? And so you could end up looking quite sad and being sad, too, because you've lost a big proportion of your life where you could have actually grown as a person.

What comes to mind is the figures of I don't know. This is quite an old one. I don't know how relevant it still is. But how many men die soon after retiring because their loss of. Purpose, Nancy.

Yeah, just just something I'm trying to get clear. I mean, I fully agree with everyone about the alpha stereotype being a myth and how everything is.

You know, we're all a bit of both what are considered kind of typically feminine or masculine traits. I agree with that. In what you were saying about everything that sales kind of sells to a stereotype because it's feeding on an insecurity. But what I find is that we just kind of keep going around in a circle. The stereotype feeds insecurity and insecurity, keeps feeding the stereotype because that image, you know, people aspire to that image. Well, I have to be like this.

I have to be like that to get this because I don't feel well enough myself. Otherwise, you know, why does it that's that's the thing. You know, it just continues and continues and continues. And we're not going to kind of move on from that. No.

Yeah. It's like there's a chain of my parents did this, their parents did this, their parents did this and that. There's a whole chain of pain somewhere. You have to break it. Yeah, Yanase.

What I see is the issue behind we all try to compete and then they forget about competing, just spend enough time to know who you are and after you can sell that product, who you are, what actually just to speak, who you are, to show who you are, be pleasant knowing yourself. That's all about you don't need to compete if you are yourself because there is no competition just on yourself.

Yes, that's very true in that whatever you do. It's going to be different that you do, even if you and someone else do exactly the same thing, it's going to be different because of because of your theory. Know, we're going to want to see this chest hair and skull change. He's gone, he's gone when we want to say yes, that OK, yes. Whatever we do is going to come like all of us. We're talking and most of us have been here for a long time.

We shared a lot of the perspectives, but they all still come out individually because we all see them in slightly different ways and it's all from our individuality. So. Yeah, I mean, we can compete in sports, we can compete in some ways, like the like even economically like businesses can compete because they have they bring different things. But really, it's about the competitive edge, which we all have, but it's a challenge to certain things not being not who you'll be, and when we confuse that what we're doing, we can be competitive in.

But when we competitive in who we're being. That starts to restart, it starts to change the essence of who we are.

I would say that's true. I knew somebody intimately who would be described as alpha within the circles, and they were in a type of accident. And, you know, I've known them all those years. But it wasn't until he was vulnerable and stripped down because of this really traumatic experience. I actually met him some sense. And all those years, all the time that I have known him, it was just, like you say, a facade, a build up, something that was in front of that.

And it was there was an odd thing to think about. This is the first time I've met you by actually, that is directly what I saw. So I think there's something more than saying, OK, I'm. Would you say something, Sandra?

Yeah, but it's interesting what Carl just said, because people you meet, people like that who want to be in a relationship and they perform in the relationship to a certain extent. But what you are relating to as the other party is not the person is not the caricature of the person that they present to you because the real person is hidden underneath. And it to me, in some extreme circumstances, it would take a really special relationship for a person to be able to withstand.

Meeting that real person underneath who they thought they were having a relationship with. It could be a big shock. And to me. The stress of maintaining that facade must be really, really tiresome, it must be really like a ton of bricks on your shoulders. Hmm.

And his constant insecurity of being found out.

Exactly, exactly, because and the more layers of obfuscation and hiding and all the rest of it that go into maintaining that picture, that in itself is corrosive. So so even though you are yearning for a relationship that will give you some of the things that you probably are looking for, you're doing yourself the biggest disservice by. For example, well, I can't I don't know the details of that lawyer, that was it Carmen who died and had two families and nobody knew about the second family.

You know, that that famous lawyer man in London. My comment, I think, is their name was Carmen, something Carmen. But he had another funny father, George. Carmen, I think so. I think he had another family. Oh, there you go. No, nobody knew he had some other family somewhere else. So what does that say? Is it that his home at home, something was really missing, so he had to go find it somewhere else?

But then why does somebody like that ever relax? Are you ever fully yourself in where are you really? Hmm. The question is, who is who are you? And his children was the same name in the two families and the third wife was the cause of our current story. But it's it's and he's not the only one there. Several famous people who, you know, what does his name differential on there, who also had a daughter turned up, was illegal after death and some other person.

But to me, you're carrying around a burden. You can never be totally free.

Do you not think that that isn't too dissimilar to the side that we show ourselves to say friend A versus friend B, C to a partner, to a mother, to. So on.

I don't know that there is deceit involved in those relationships, I think. Well, for me, I know that I relate to my friends differently because of their personalities, what they're interested in, what I'm interested in that coincides with them. And so. I have different relationships with different people that show different sides of me, and it's not that I'm being disingenuous to any of them, it's what's brought out because of the interaction.

Yeah, I think we behave differently at a funeral to a party. And so I think we can operate within a spectrum and the environment and the context and the people we live. Activate something. So I think people are different in different relationships because there's a different dynamic. So there's often someone who's in a relationship. I've been in a relationship for a long time and they've never been romantic or I've never been whatever. And then their new relationship and they they're very romantic or very whatever.

And it's partly sometimes a reaction from not being honest to being honest, but sometimes it's just different people. There's a different dynamic in a relationship and something else in them. So like some people are more fun with some people or they're more relaxed with others. So it's not necessarily that we're being deceitful or being different deliberately, but sometimes it's just we responding to the context. OK, I've got to go and be the out for a minute. Do has anyone got any anything, any false insights, perspectives on the aftermath to share.

Come on, Jonas Yanase, I thought I thought your nose is clicking on, there is about to be in a holiday. This is just a label. It don't believe in that. You know, you have to be your own self, that it's nothing else more powerful than to be truly yourself, to be a truly unique and to discover yourself and be able to show others what. His thoughts of the day, I think I feel good, I think is another label, and I think there's so many labels that we.

We use his laziness, dictators just want to be sure they are a little bit stronger and they want to somewhere, somehow easier describing to others rather than, you know, be more meat mistick, you know, a little bit like, yeah, I am like that.

Mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like the competitiveness of if I can have a label I can be more, more than you.

Another golden, you know, another podimata.

OK, any other insights so it gives you permission, doesn't it, if you give him the label? Yeah, to to act that way. But he's not going label and you can just be who likes it, who you want, who you are, who you want to be. And today, yeah, but you shouldn't be given a. No, I don't think anybody should be given a label.

Yeah, and I think we should break free of the labels that we've been giving. All of us have been given labels by our family school work anyway like that. And the labels are just lazy shorthand. Like George Fox says, every model is useful until it isn't. And I think things like Myers Briggs and people can get star signs and Enneagram and all of these things can be useful to a degree. And then they become harmful, like people who've been in toxic relationships.

It's there's a stage where it's useful to know it's toxic, but then there's a stage where if you stay in it too long, it becomes limiting and it stops people from going past that substance.

Right. If it's used in the right context.

Yeah, I think all of these things are tools. So, like knowing more brigs, I think is really helpful because it gives an explanation. But if you look at groups of people who are in my nana, I'm like this because if I'm a mom or whatever and yes, all of those. So, for example, in the toxic relationships is helpful to know it's not you, because what people coming out of that or think is something about me is my baby.

I'm the bad one. And so having that label is useful, but then it becomes limiting in the first stage of healing is awareness. But the next stage is like. So it's not someone's fall when they've become. When I've been in a toxic relationship and it's not their fault, however, there was a vulnerability that led them into it. And because not everyone would have been in someone who was less, you know, like so this is where a lot of them can label themselves, and perhaps it's because I'm an impartial.

Yes, but there's also it's a bit more than that and it's a bit more in that. Everything is out there in relationships, and it's about how you navigate through it. So someone else could navigate away from it, so. Where people use personality types to. So to justify or someone or other people can say you trauma and so many women stay with men and this is sexist and probably a generalization, but what I see because message I gave my mom wasn't there and my mom was cruel to me.

All this happened. And that can be a justification the first time, but the second, the third, the fifth attempt, the 20th time, it's not justification because you're an adult. You can get over that once you're aware of it. I think part of it is being afraid of being authentic, authentic, and another part is laziness, and it's not even actually laziness. I think it's more fair. Change is hard. Change is scary to actually grow up.

Pastor. Like Charlie, it takes effort and it takes fighting demons. It's easier to say this happened, therefore this is the way I am. So, yeah, I think people do. They use their masks to excuse, I think the basic dynamic is that no one wants to change. They want other people. They want other people in the outside world to change. So whenever someone says right, and this is a common one, is like dating sites, a terrible dating sites don't work, what they're really saying is.

I really it needs to be you need if you want to have the easiest access to people. So therefore, if you change, how you navigate them is the quickest route to finding someone. But to say I don't need them because they're toxic or whatever. Is. The same way that people say there's no good men out there. There are good men, there are all that women are only after certain things there are. But you have to change the men, all the women that you're connecting with.

You have to change how you navigate around them in order to get different results. If that makes sense, I don't know if I've gone off with tangent. But really, I think people. It's people when people are frustrated, it's easier to use a label. As an excuse. And so people want their partner, they want the world to change because naturally and I think someone mentioned this, but we are we are all selfish. And we all want to believe the best of people, but our core, we are an animal.

Like most basic reptilian brain is an animal like that, we want what we want. So the ability to. Have a relationship, successful relationship means that we have to override that. Because the when two people get in a relationship, there's the gap. This is my dream. This is my dream. And a relationship of control is trying to pull someone into your into your vision. A relationship of freedom is when you break that model and you rebuild anew.

So. There is in everything that we do the day that we have the access. Why are you like when we want to get in shape? Everything like. Achieving whatever you want to achieve at work means that we have to change, but we always get frustrated and wish that the world would change. So. Labels and excuses are a way that we limit ourselves and we justify. The fear and anxiety of change. And that's quite a long monologue.

OK. Any anything else before we go, any of our insights, perspectives to share.

So we need to learn not to fear change then, which means two ways of learning to not be afraid.

No, I don't think we can. I think relationships like success, survival, meaning something that's ever present in our life. And it's developing the relationship with that. So you're always going to be afraid. You're always going to be like have discomfort, so it is changing the relationship and embracing fear.

Actually, I think my term should be managing fear or managing fear. Santa fear has to be there. Yeah, you just need to go for it. You decide if that's actually reality or it's just kind of can stop you in any day. Does somebody get hurt physically? Not really. If that somebody can die from it. Not really. So go for it.

Or you can die from it yourself. I bet it's over, I guess, Sandra, I would be happy to live five minutes like that than 50 years with the scarcity. OK. Would you need 50 years just in the bed, in the bedroom and just sleep it, leave the beat or be fucking enjoyed, jump out, do it, then sit whatever. Just go for it. Enjoy it.

OK by me an F1 car and take me out on one of the one of the tracks. I mean I may not live to see the end of it, but that would be the dream.

See, you've got something. What. You will risk it. Yeah. It's a risk taking. That's all about the life. It's all this data that it's always even the biggest people do have. But they put that behaviour. They put in their hands even like that, that even if just one person suggested you go for it.

But an inability to manage fear, though, has held many people back. I mean, it's a reality and yeah, the butterflies in the stomach, yes, we learn to handle that, you know, exam jitters and all of that. But there are fears that can cripple people where they actually can't operate, they can't move. And that's what I'm talking about, learning to control. You accept that fear is there. It is a risk. It's just getting up and getting out of bed.

You can be a dangerous exercise, but we do it sometimes in the dark without even thinking because we just have to do it. But there are types of fears that cripple people. To the point where they literally freeze and can't operate, that's through sand out when I was younger, I had that situation where actually my brain freeze my whole body for over an hour from my head down. I couldn't move anything. Doctor had to come with the ability to inject in my shoulder.

And after finally, half an hour later, it started moving my body. So I know how it's fear. But as Michael Jordan said, the fear, it's just a fucking program. It's only exist in the future. Stockpiled to do something he said as well, 70 percent of times he missed the boss, but he still went for it. And he was the greatest basketball player, and he said that he had to fear. So if he can do, why we cannot I think people are paralyzed by their fear, but that's about it's about managing your relationship to fear.

It's about theory. And I think most of what. When you look like the cultural myth is like we want the lawsuit to win the lottery and find the one and be happy ever after that, both an attempt to. To not have to really engage with life. They're both an attempt to say, OK, that's ticked off, that's ticked off because what it's about is I don't want to have to deal with the fear of life. I don't want to have to deal with a fear of insecurity.

And yet. I think what they miss. What I do is that they give us false comfort. They feel like there's a sense of like that's done and we don't have to worry about it. But the reality is that even if you have money, you have to worry about losing the money. You have to there's a much more complexity because you're like if we all got millions and we were told that this was it, that people like where would you where do you put it?

Because you put it in a bank account, only, so much of it is secured. What if the banks go bust, if you put it in investments or if they all go bust? So it's not as straightforward as thinking would never have to worry about it again. And it's exactly the same in the relationship. Just because you found someone who you think is the one that doesn't mean they're not going to die, doesn't mean that the relationship isn't going to change and they're always going to be there.

So this is why relationship is a lifelong journey. And in the same way, fear is a lifelong journey is always going to be that whatever you do, there's going to be fear. And it's about how do you live with the fear?

But sometimes it's not the fear itself, it's the fear of the fear of not succeeding, of being called a failure.

But that is fair.

Yeah, but it's the label, the OK, the the thing itself is not the insurmountable object to the notion that people will then label you. So the act of train is not the fear itself that you may not succeed, but it's what people do with the knowledge that you did not succeed. Yeah. That sometimes squashes you from even trying because there's fear. Then there's fear underneath the atmosphere, underneath fear and this fear underneath it. So I believe there is only the only emotion.

Core is life, which is like happy joy, love, and then it's about fear, how much the fear is blocking it. So they extend like completely blocked is fear half it is anger like pessimistic is some blocked. So it's like emotions there. Kaleidoscope, depending on how much fear is blocking it. So but everything is the fear and it's fear of what people say is the fear of what will happen. It's a fear of I if it all goes well, fear of like who am I to have this and all of those kind of things.

But they're all underpinned by fear. And so the real core, most people are driven to want a relationship because of the anxiety, because their anxiety that they will never have the relationship they want. So it goes straight from breakup to I'm going to be a lonely old cat lady and no one will ever love me and I'll die in my home. And you'll be days later. And that is where people got this is why it's so hard after a breakup, because people immediately the way the brain works is it snowballs and catastrophizing to the worst instance.

And that's all about. So a breakup is really about fear. It's not about the other person because the other person, it was what it was what you felt while they were there. And so when the person's gone five years time, you've met someone else who you're so in love with, you don't care about this person, you care about this person now because they symbolize the fact that your future is gone, the future that you dreamed of, everything you can see in the future is entwined with them.

And because that seems to have gone is fear, fear that people the breakup, the struggle that I'll never meet anyone like that again, no one else will love me like that. I'm going to be on my own because I look at our dating is so. A lot of what we think is lost and time is really about fear.

But think about that as negociate asla fear, it's a fuel for me, definitely. You just need to learn how to use that. For me, it's actually a transcendence or just a catalyst to go for the anger. And after anger you go to courage and you go for it and you do whatever it happens. You should not stop at that level, go deeper on it because we all try to suppress that feeling rather than go go deeper and go to the anger and go to the courage after.

And you will go. That's what the supporters are doing, just encouraging each other to bully each other for a second. Yes. Yes, if you don't fail, you're not going to succeed. You don't know how to fail. So you have to work on what you what you fail from and how you failed. Then you build up and build up from that to learn how to succeed. Yeah, because. No, never failed. You never know.

Don't know how it feels.

Yeah. And like and so on. So many things in my head and so yeah it's it's. I guess it's the. Right, so first of all. The fear of failing is because. We have been taught that the great like the great man theory, which we talked about, which is like the alpha male, there's certain people who are just perfect. It's like the epitome of alpha male with James Bond because James Bond is always cool, is always suave.

He always knows what to do. Right. And so that whole model like of school means that failing once. So at school, nobody or definitely they didn't in the past. You don't go out. I felt good because now you're going to learn. And it's all these kind of graphics on social media of like fail, fell, fell, fell like this is what success looks like. Everyone thinks you guys want to like Straight-line. So failing is actually how we learn.

It's like a toddler keeps falling over in order to learn how to. How to. Like they are better and this is more in the talent code. Uncoil talks about is that those failures? What it does like it's not practice makes perfect is perfect practice. So the like when I talked about the Russian Tennis Academy, what I did was they did a certain type of practice. And people who really practice effectively is the guy to the point where it breaks.

And then it goes to the point and I keep getting to the point that he gets to the point. And what they're doing is when you do that, you build Maalin chief around new neural connections. And so if you do and you go further and further and further that you hardwire. The change that you want to make, but like you say, Syria has to come from failure. But the problem is, and this is like the idea of finite and infinite games is we think when a marriage breaks down is failure.

We don't think about the relationship journey, we think about the. Momentary success, so we are taking snapshots of. What's happening in the moment? As opposed to recognizing that success comes after many failures. What are we downloading? Is this you in the Formula One car? Because when you were talking in. Of like, go for it. I'm thinking, oh, my God, this man in a Formula One car is going to be a maniac.

I wish to be, but probably I'm too old for that by now. No sense to be assuming that I gave you. Three of those has to be a. You know, I miss that I to be eight years old and thought for that. No. Yes, I was going to ask Sandra something earlier you was talking about that you wouldn't be interested in, like changing or growing or developing way. Do you think that's healthy? I mean, do you just think this should be a man out there who is submissive enough to take you fully and should should just accept you?

I mean, what how are you processing this? Oh, I don't think you could ever think that I would not change anything, OK?

I mean, yes, the essential meat. But I'm what you'd call it now. I'm still evolving. I'm still changing. Right. But the essential core me is me. In other words, I argue I will not put up with nonsense and I will stand up for myself. That will never change. OK, so there are things about me that will be that are constant. And if you can't cope with those, then I think it's best we say it is nice meeting you, just nice knowing you.

But really we rub each other the wrong way because you are. And you are. But I am very flexible. If you are willing to meet me, part me, I will meet you partly on somethings.

No, no, no, no, no, I, I, I, I, I think that essentially there's a core in everybody. That that makes us who we are. And then there are certain things that we learn is that we develop over time and some things need to be changed. Yes, because they may have resulted as a result come about as a result of unfortunate experiences that we have built up defenses or bad habits and those we can work on.

But I think the essential core of us. You know, this is something that's really corrosive. It's it's us, it's what makes us who we are and we can't change. If he was still alive, he would tell you, yes, she was in the front of the church when Stubbornest was given out, she was number one in the queue and you have to believe him. But my stubbornness has got me where I am because I have done things that I wasn't supposed to do.

My mother thought that I should be a nice secretary behind a desk in some office. I should be a clerk said that I went into a fish pond and I was a farm and fish with men, you know, and digging fish ponds with tractors. I loved it. I thought it was the best thing that I could do, but it just didn't fit the stereotype because I'm stubborn.

Yeah, this isn't really a person. I'm just trying to understand the psychology no, I'm trying to understand the psychology of a person who says, no, I am fixed, I am this and this is it. And I just yeah, I see your point now, but you also did say something really positive, which is you would be willing to meet people halfway on the actually, it's about reasonability, but there are levels within me that won't tolerate X, Y and Z.

But I don't want to go back to that model because it was poor. But do you not think that there are, like you said, corrosive behaviors, like if you're overtly fiery or how can you say like short? Cuz surely there is a corrosive things that can cause damage real quick.

Yes, I agree. I agree. And I think that it's something that if you recognize that as a shortcoming in yourself, that you can work on it and you should be mature enough to be able to see it because it does do damage to people who are close to you. And if you recognize that, what do you do and how you behave? And I've had it in my family. I had an aunt who was a school teacher and she was the most caustic person.

She she could break you, OK? And. And that didn't go over well with young children because we just thought that she didn't love us at all. But and she never changed. But the thing is, I think self recognition is an important thing and there are certain characteristics that you and you need to recognize. And the other things I think are learned behaviors on top of those essential characteristics. And those are the ones that I think that can be changed.

And then again, we behave differently with different people. Because there are some people who if they're if I'm with them, I don't talk, I listen, believe it or not, I know some and there are places where I'll be me and I will be alive. Wow. So. What can I tell you?

I think when we talked about the missing free rebellion, I think there's a core there's an essence of his stubbornness. And I think that's really what Sanders is talking about. That's not going to change because that's who I am. But I think the ways that we get off course and sometimes to. It's helpful, like, I think we grow in relationships, we grow in a good relationship because they point out and I think there's three key areas is dogma something we've been taught that isn't true where we've got to match like ignorance of we think this is right.

That is not. And that's why when we challenged, that can change. And also emotions. So being. An emotional reaction is is not the core of who someone is, someone can be emotional, but the emotional reaction is not who they are. So I think in nice three ways that in ways that people can change, but changing the essence of who you are is demeaning yourself.

I think we we need to always try to be fair to each other, to others, while also being true to ourselves, and I don't think we have actually discussed recognizing when a relationship is not right for us, it doesn't bring out the best in us and how we navigate. Dissolving that or removing ourselves from that type of relationship, and I don't think that. Moving away from a relationship necessarily needs to be discussed in demeaning, horrible, painful, you know, revengeful type of activity.

I think that's also something that we need to learn because some some relationships do run their course. And that's also something that I think we need to navigate. How do we end? Something without Dominion, either party or all parties, because sometimes when you're married, you're married to both, both families come together and you have to navigate all of those other relationships as well as well as children. And it's again, it's another thing that we are not taught to look at as a possibility when we are entering into a relationship, into our marriage, for example, is till death do us part.

That's the vow in sickness and in health. For richer, for poorer, but not. To look that there is a possibility that this thing could actually come to a hot end for me, I think what happens is. Because people working from a flawed model, they get frustrated when people get frustrated, they blame, they look for addicts, they look for a reason or excuse, and they blame that. And so their frustration becomes how their partner.

And so the longer they stick, the more frustrated they get and they then demonize their partner. And I think it's really important to be strong to tell the story that makes you strong, like there's no nothing to be gained in. Like self flagellation, but equally, you still have to make the other person strong and if something doesn't work between two good people. Then it's not necessarily that one of them is bad, it's just something didn't work, and when we can hold on to that and be more conscious and really more aware of the real reason of why the relationship's breaking down, broken down, then it doesn't have to be the recriminations.

I think the flawed model makes us blame the other person. And so this is why so many people hate their when. Often it's just they did things like we do things that we're not proud of because we feel bad and they did things to them because of the situation we're in. So I think it's more helpful to have a narrative that makes both of you strong. And rather than roll.

I was just going to say it, but then again, at the same time, somebody has exhibited poor characteristics of like explosiveness and things like this. What are you supposed to say? How do you empower that?

It's not in power that. So people do bad things, but mostly people do bad things when they're when they're this is like the line, when they're below the line, they do bad things all of us do. So it's recognizing that if they're below the line evah, is something going on in their life, something that's nothing to do with you or the relationship has a bug in it, which is causing you or probably both of you to be below the line.

And that's why the behavior happens. So, for example. When you look at most relationships break down, they break down because someone did something. Whether they cheated, whether they betrayed them or whether they lied or whatever, but the that is the symptom. Of the relationship not working for a long time and. When we. Like when our freedom is cut and when we're unhappy and we're stuck in this room, we go we go crazy. And people do that emotionally in relationships.

And that is why there's so much. Bitterness and. There are some people who will go out and hurt people like sociopaths, narcissists that like you can't be in a relationship with someone like that. But then there's other people mostly it's mostly good people doing bad things. And it's either they didn't have the capacity. Well, ultimately, it's because they didn't have the capacity, but sometimes it's just because the relationship dynamics wear them down.

But Karl was talking specifically about explosive behavior, though, and I think in some instances that could be learned behavior in terms of their socialization, could be trauma from other experiences. And it's possible that that then becomes their default. So they are reacting and probably there needs to be a way to find out how they can unlearn that learned behavior and learn to react in a different way. And so it's sometimes you can't sometimes, you know, writing off people because of something that seems like like it's a character flaw.

Is that admitting defeat to a potentially very good person? Because it might be the one thing that really stands out as being something that is difficult to cope with, but is not an intrinsic part of the person in the sense that it can't be modified or they can't learn new coping skills.

Yeah, yeah. And it really brings us a full loop because that's the idea of Alpha really is. Not trying to fool. But there was. Yeah, I mean, I saw that as a complete circle. I don't know if you see the same thing.

You mean unlearning or learning some of those behaviors that you get of a type?

Yeah, because people are learning behavior to be an alpha. And what they're really doing is creating a problem where you recognizing that our problems are all created by all the things that have been learned and we're not aware of. And yet there is a cultural difference that some people being emotional is. Natural for them, for others, it isn't so stereotypically, women are more emotional, men are more stark. So, yes, it's different. All of these things are very about nuance.

Yeah, because if you take them as literal and this is the problem that so many people watching these videos and taken it literally, it's nothing is little. There's there's a really fine balance.

But then surely those things come out as you get to know someone, you see the personal characteristics, there's just so much that you can hide in terms of your emotional makeup and how you react to certain things. And if you're observant, you will see those things and then you have the ability to, before you get too committed, decide that this is something that I can't cope with. This is alien to my persona. It just doesn't go with my character.

I guess I can't sustain a relaxed and committed relationship with those those types of traits. But sometimes I think we really we give in to the oh, I'm so in love. I'm so in love. It will conquer everything and it doesn't. But we already know that these things are difficult things, that that's the point I'm making. We know the reality, but we choose not to act on them.

Yeah, I think something I've kind of witnessed, which I really appreciate, everything that's been said tonight is the. If you tried to communicate something in somebody's first reaction was short tempered, Miss, how can you ever get anywhere if you don't feel able to communicate? It's never going to happen. And I mean, I know that in some of my childhood relationships that were based on fear, you end up lying to avoid the thing. But then this is why I developed a little bit more honesty.

I hope, in so much as I realized if you lie to them, it makes them even more angry. I learned to love someone to the. Yeah, I guess being able to talk is the first point, and I really appreciate what you said. Well, actually, it's not always about the that cold personality and it can be a good person just in feel or expressing something. So I'm sorry for topic.

OK, thank you, everyone. I've got to go, I've got to let you have a good week. So next week on Wednesday. And so we just got any questions. We're just going to try and be more. Like just an open session, really relevant of any questions you've got, and we can all share ideas to try and find answers and we'll meet the puppy.

Well, if I held him here, he would he would be biting me. Show you some video of the moment.

He's what, you OK? Until he gets excited and gets excited and runs around and he wants to fight. And I know you'd love to hear what you think. And then maybe.

Alpha male, yeah, yeah, let's go, you have a good wait and see you next Wednesday.