Episode 66

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Published on:

18th Jan 2024

Tuning Leaders In Through Transformational Conversations

Have you ever listened to a piano that was off-key?

The Pianist could be trying their best. Yet, whatever they do it won't sound right. Until the piano gets re-tuned it was always be that bit out.

Sometimes people are a little off-key.

There's something that isn't working. We can all know it. But how do you get them tuned back in?

When a leader is off-key it affects them and their team.

In this episode of The Unified Team I spoke to Michalina Buenk.

Michalina is a Coach who works with leaders on career and leadership transformations. She has a a range of qualifications and experience, but also empathy and intuition. She has a very different style to the way I work.

One I dubbed the piano tuning style.

Listen in to see why...

Transcript
Speaker:

How do we join with others to achieve and experience more and

Speaker:

get in flow as a unified team?

Speaker:

This is the question we ask each episode in the Unified Team podcast.

Speaker:

Here's your host, Rob McPhillips.

Michalina:

I change people's lives through deep conversations, and that can

Michalina:

have a very different perspective, view, impact, or way that it shows up to anyone

Michalina:

that works with me, that talks to me.

Michalina:

I believe very strongly, very firmly in a reason why we meet.

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Why we talk, why certain things come to place and show up and why we notice

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things at certain points in time and where those things can lead us.

Michalina:

So for me, it's never really about being very prescriptive or very marketing

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like, this is your transformation A to B and this is what you need

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to get to B and then there is C and there is a C and D conversation.

Michalina:

That's not me.

Michalina:

What I do is I take a person in front of me and I have a conversation.

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That conversation unfolds a lot of the things that are meaningful and that are

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needed for the person in front of me.

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And this is why I believe that I can make the bold claim of I change people's

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lives because they're ready to hear, notice, and do something with their lives.

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And there is always a smaller or bigger change that comes out of that.

Michalina:

In marketing terms, if you want to classify what I've just

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said, I'm a leadership coach.

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Coach who also cares about the career.

Michalina:

For me, everything is underpinned by purpose.

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So if you find purpose, everything aligns, everything else is meaningful,

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fulfilling, and you can carry on with whatever it is that you need to do

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here in a way that's right for you.

Michalina:

If we need labels.

Michalina:

That's the label.

Michalina:

But if you need a transformation, there's no A to B marketing.

Michalina:

There's a deep conversation that really matters and you need it at that point.

Rob:

Which I think is really the way that we've evolved.

Rob:

For me, conversation is the most natural channel.

Rob:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

That's the basis.

Michalina:

And whether It happens over a platform, social media, day to

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day conversations, some other forms, it doesn't really matter.

Michalina:

The content that matters.

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It's that exchange of energy between people and everything else that they bring

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to the conversation and the relationship.

Michalina:

And it's just fascinating.

Michalina:

You can't really put that in a box in any way.

Michalina:

At least I can't.

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

Maybe you tell me differently.

Michalina:

Yeah, no,

Rob:

I totally agree.

Rob:

Typically.

Rob:

What are the kind of problems someone has when they come to you?

Rob:

What is the transformation that they're seeking?

Rob:

And is the transformation they're seeking what generally turns out to be?

Michalina:

I think the answer is already in your question there.

Michalina:

Very often we think That we have a problem called x and it turns out that

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it sits somewhere completely different.

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And we're looking at symptoms, not the causes, or not the

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why's behind other things.

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So coaching allows you to dig really deep and really look at and

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examine and reflect on all this.

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stuff that you think you have a problem with, or you think are your goals

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versus what's really going on for you.

Michalina:

The clients who I work with at the moment come with all sorts of things

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they all come under being a leader or a manager or people manager in

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a large or medium organization.

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They all think that they have goals and ideas.

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And this could be going solo as a consultant, this could be getting a

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promotion, it could be going back to the role they've missed out on a while back.

Michalina:

It turns out it's a lot deeper and a lot more meaningful than that.

Michalina:

A client who wants to leave the organization he's worked for 15 years,

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actually what he really truly wants is not to go solo as a consultant.

Michalina:

He can do this without my help.

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But he needs to find a way of going through a divorce.

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The current company he's at, and that is a lot deeper than, and not that

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easy for him to actually go through.

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And that's why he needs my help.

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Someone else talks to me about wanting to go after the role that she missed out

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on, or she left, or she walked away from a few years back because she thought

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she couldn't deal with the politics and the toxic environment at that time.

Michalina:

Turns out there's.

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lot about finding out who she is, what she wants and what her values are, to then

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create a role she would be truly happy in.

Michalina:

Someone wants to talk about their strategic skill set and

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what is it that they're missing?

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Why aren't they being seen as strategic players in their organization?

Michalina:

There is a lot more to that than this.

Michalina:

It's a whole set of thinking and approach to what they do that needs

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to be looked at and examined and checked whether it's still fits and

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whether it's them or whether they're trying to be someone they don't truly

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want to be, and they self sabotage.

Michalina:

So that's just a few of those things that I'm dealing with

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at the moment with people.

Michalina:

Someone comes to me to say, okay, I'm ready to leave,

Michalina:

but I don't know what's next.

Michalina:

I need to go.

Michalina:

I've been with this business.

Michalina:

I've had the most amazing career that I could not care less.

Michalina:

about at the moment, 20 years.

Michalina:

I'm closing a chapter.

Michalina:

I want purpose.

Michalina:

I want something meaningful.

Michalina:

Turns out she knows what it is.

Michalina:

She's known for 20 years and what she wants to do is absolutely incredible.

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She just needs someone to hold her, to help her, to make it.

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real and to make it happen.

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So there is no A to B.

Michalina:

They, the, what you come with and what you actually want to work on and what

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you need are two very different things, sometimes three different things if

Michalina:

you start looking deeper into it.

Michalina:

It

Rob:

really resonates.

Rob:

There's some research that most people who want to leave their marriage,

Rob:

it takes them about six years from really knowing to actually doing it.

Rob:

What you're really saying is that we all get stuck in our own head.

Rob:

And we think we need permission.

Rob:

We think we need reassurance.

Rob:

We need something from someone else.

Rob:

Some of the time it's because it's just in our head.

Rob:

And when we talk it out, we make it more real.

Rob:

When it's out there, we can deal with it.

Michalina:

So there is this internal dialogue.

Michalina:

That happens all the time.

Michalina:

We're very used to it.

Michalina:

We don't even recognize that it happens.

Michalina:

We just think that's our way of seeing reality around us, which is not true.

Michalina:

Then there is the element of permission.

Michalina:

Then there is an element of being very desperate to have labels for

Michalina:

everything to try to understand, because if we don't have labels, it's

Michalina:

so difficult to actually be creative and honest and real, we like navigate

Michalina:

through labels because it's easier.

Michalina:

So we need to call it going solo.

Michalina:

Becoming a consultant.

Michalina:

We need to call it starting your own business or we need to call it whatever

Michalina:

it is, or the example that you've shared in around marriages, there's so many

Michalina:

labels around economic, social, and other perspectives that need to be taken for.

Michalina:

The reason that people need.

Michalina:

A coach is because they need to be helped.

Michalina:

They need that space and they need an honest place where they can think

Michalina:

forward and then they can organize their own thoughts and think forward.

Michalina:

There is a lot around, so what is and isn't therapy and

Michalina:

deep coaching conversation.

Michalina:

Very often a deep coaching conversation will draw from the past, will circle

Michalina:

into the things that mattered and shaped you and impact you in certain

Michalina:

ways to then help you go forward.

Michalina:

So those lines can be very much blurred and you pick and choose what you need to

Michalina:

create a story you want going forward.

Michalina:

But I think overall it's about having that safe space that

Michalina:

it's okay to start and then.

Michalina:

How do we do this?

Rob:

Totally agree with that.

Rob:

It's on my mind because my little rant today was about lots of

Rob:

therapists become they see everything in their school of therapy.

Rob:

Coaches see everything in their way.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

You did mention it this morning.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

When you

Rob:

look at therapy, no therapy is more successful than others.

Rob:

There are maybe like slight differences.

Rob:

Generally, they're about the same success rate.

Rob:

And, but the one key thing that determines success, it's not therapy itself, but

Rob:

it's the warmth and the trust that someone, that the therapist can create.

Rob:

It's someone that they trust.

Rob:

And from our interactions, I can see that you have that kind of

Rob:

comforting warmth, nurturing.

Michalina:

I can totally make you cry if you need that, Rob.

Michalina:

Let's just be clear on this.

Michalina:

But thank you.

Rob:

Yeah so I can see that's what people are looking for.

Rob:

That's what they need.

Rob:

It's to make that kind of transformation is a jump and it's a jump that brings

Rob:

on all our insecurities and our doubts.

Michalina:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

And.

Michalina:

It's a bit of a cliche to say that you need to trust and like the person

Michalina:

you work with, but you absolutely do.

Michalina:

You can have the most amazing qualifications and experience

Michalina:

if it doesn't work for you too in co creating that safe space

Michalina:

for you to change your life.

Michalina:

It's never going to work.

Michalina:

No one really cares about the amazing websites and marketing and

Michalina:

accreditations and qualifications and experience and everything else.

Michalina:

They just want to feel whether you get them or not.

Michalina:

And there's this lovely phrase.

Michalina:

Meet someone where they're at it's actually very difficult to do, but the

Michalina:

person who has enough skill set and experience and intuition and everything

Michalina:

else can find that moment where you can align and build something together.

Michalina:

And it's not about if it's a relationship with me, it's not about me, knowing where

Michalina:

you're going and telling you and here's the best way and here's how to avoid

Michalina:

X, Y, and Z and you will be successful.

Michalina:

Couldn't be further from it, but it's about you trusting me that I will

Michalina:

challenge you and I will care for you and I will hold that space so you can grow.

Michalina:

Very often we're so used to being told what to do and how to do things, being

Michalina:

told to follow other examples and just fitting them in somehow and making

Michalina:

something meaningful out of that.

Michalina:

And when someone says, but what do you want?

Michalina:

It can open a flood of tears.

Michalina:

Just not being rushed in a conversation can be transformational.

Michalina:

When someone have.

Michalina:

has three minutes to think about the answer to the question you've just asked.

Michalina:

It could be transformational.

Michalina:

You can't put this in the marketing material on LinkedIn or anywhere

Michalina:

else, but I've seen this truly powerfully happening in front of me.

Michalina:

If it comes to working with me, I found a way in my own

Michalina:

personality not to judge people.

Michalina:

I level the energy levels.

Michalina:

So the person is who's in front of me and I allow things to happen.

Michalina:

And it's one of those things that you need to feel.

Michalina:

You can't describe, you need to experience.

Michalina:

So you know what I'm talking about?

Michalina:

I find that this truly helps because this truly propels someone forward.

Michalina:

And who am I to tell what's your B or C or D is?

Michalina:

You don't know that yet.

Michalina:

But what you need is that step to go feel empowered that you can, that

Michalina:

you could fail, or you could succeed, or you could embarrass yourself, or

Michalina:

you could be loved, or you could, whatever it is that you fear, whatever

Michalina:

the outcome at the end of the fear is, you could do all those things.

Michalina:

So for me, I think it's about leveling up that energy exchange, if I can call that.

Michalina:

Very often I work with people who are, who navigate different cultures.

Michalina:

National cultures or organizational cultures where they always try to fit

Michalina:

in and belong, but they don't really feel that in, in different ways.

Michalina:

And because I've got this multicultural background, I can understand

Michalina:

where they're floating and what's happening and say, hang on a minute,

Michalina:

that's the next boy you need.

Michalina:

This is the next step, but then figure out where you want to go from there.

Michalina:

And I think it helps.

Michalina:

Because the more multi perspective you've got in life the easier it is to

Michalina:

be creative because you can say oh i'll take that and i know that works and

Michalina:

by the way i don't know what do i call this but if i take this and this from

Michalina:

my past i can be empowered fulfilled creative and do everything else and

Michalina:

you know as coaches or therapists we use all those big words and all these

Michalina:

amazing jargon you know if you're a And you need this, and you need that.

Michalina:

No, no one talks like that in real life.

Michalina:

They just go, I haven't got a clue.

Michalina:

I can't figure this out.

Michalina:

I just don't know.

Michalina:

And I've very recently heard someone say that, don't know is

Michalina:

the best answer you can hear.

Michalina:

And I absolutely and truly support it because that's where things

Michalina:

going to start to change for you.

Michalina:

So if you, if there is something you don't know, you should be really pleased to

Rob:

go to that place.

Rob:

It's the sign of a great breakthrough.

Rob:

Like I always think confusion confusion is.

Rob:

is like in between what you knew and a transformation of what you will know.

Rob:

It's leveling

Michalina:

up.

Michalina:

That's a really nice way of putting it actually.

Michalina:

And there's so much choice, there's so many possibilities in that.

Michalina:

Why is confusion need to mean something negative?

Michalina:

There are all these labels again that come in and just going back to your

Michalina:

point around so this type of therapy has these answers and this type of coaching

Michalina:

has these answers and all of that.

Michalina:

I think there is a bit of ego of a professional carrying out certain

Michalina:

Ways of working with people.

Michalina:

I think we need to constantly bring ourselves back that this is not about us.

Michalina:

We lend in certain experiences, energy and knowledge to help on

Michalina:

a journey, but not to change it.

Michalina:

It's not about us.

Michalina:

It's not our success and it's not our ego that needs to come in and

Michalina:

it's an ongoing journey there.

Michalina:

But equally, it's good to try out different things and pick and

Michalina:

choose those bits that we need.

Michalina:

And then to your point around the confusion there is.

Michalina:

So many things that just are.

Michalina:

They're not negative or positive.

Michalina:

We make them to be negative or positive.

Michalina:

And if we just reframe certain things, and if we just look at things

Michalina:

differently, so much can happen.

Michalina:

And I see that very often in conversations, where sometimes,

Michalina:

if you want to describe it, nothing really changed.

Michalina:

The events are still as they are.

Michalina:

The stuck, being stuck or being confused.

Michalina:

It's still there.

Michalina:

The choices are still the same, but the person leaves the session

Michalina:

going, everything's changed, but you can't explain what it is.

Michalina:

It's that way of thinking, feeling, looking at things that's changed.

Michalina:

So back to the transformation.

Michalina:

The word transformation can be quite frightening if you trans translate

Michalina:

it to in, in, in certain languages.

Michalina:

Transformation can mean leaving everything you know behind.

Michalina:

So that's threatening.

Michalina:

So why would you do that?

Michalina:

If you use the word change, there is so much cognitive load and

Michalina:

emotional load that comes with it.

Michalina:

But if you just change that word, and if you just look at things differently,

Michalina:

everything can change in a way.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

I think we always want to change circumstances, but often what

Rob:

we really need to change is

Rob:

perspective.

Michalina:

That's right.

Michalina:

But if you tell someone you need to change your perspective,

Michalina:

they'll go, yeah, of course I do.

Michalina:

And I've got my own opinion.

Michalina:

Oh, yes, everyone has one.

Michalina:

So back to labels and back to words, but really listening and asking

Michalina:

questions that in that moment can shift that energy level for someone.

Michalina:

That's key.

Michalina:

And this is why I love coaching and this is where I think it works.

Michalina:

And for me, this is where empowerment or leadership truly sits in those moments

Michalina:

of feeling that a change is possible, that the mindset is there and unlocks

Michalina:

something, I hate that word unlocks.

Michalina:

Because it's such a marketing coaching word.

Michalina:

Oh, unlock your power within.

Michalina:

If you were to truly really use those words, yes, that's what it comes down to.

Rob:

It's like authenticity.

Rob:

Authenticity is something that is so important.

Rob:

It is something that you can use all the time.

Rob:

And yeah, people have so much used and abused it that it's it now, it, you like,

Rob:

the word I really want is authentic.

Rob:

I know people have so much connotations with it.

Rob:

And yeah, there's certain words that are so powerful, but.

Rob:

We have to avoid them because they've been, they've lost some of their meaning.

Rob:

Oh, they've

Michalina:

been beaten to death.

Michalina:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

Sometimes when I say, Oh, it's about being authentic.

Michalina:

I immediately go, Whoa.

Michalina:

And these are the 10 or 20 things that can be said about this.

Michalina:

Take it back now.

Michalina:

But again, it's about co creating that space of someone in front of you, and

Michalina:

using the words that are right for them.

Michalina:

Really listening deeply to how do they express themselves, using those

Michalina:

words, bringing that insight and reflection back to them, to really

Michalina:

truly for them to find their own way.

Michalina:

It's not about me and my way.

Michalina:

I can swear all along.

Michalina:

My grandma used to say that if you swear you actually change

Michalina:

reality because it's magical.

Michalina:

Because your emotions change, your mindset shifts, so reality changes too.

Michalina:

And I love that.

Michalina:

But if I told you that, or if I swore in front of you for 10

Michalina:

minutes, you'd be like, She's not for

Rob:

me.

Rob:

Can you say that again?

Rob:

Your grandma said if you swear, you change

Michalina:

reality?

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

So if you use swear word, your world around you changes after you've done

Michalina:

that, because there is magic in that swear word, because you release your

Michalina:

emotions, you change your mind, so you can deal with the world around you in

Michalina:

a different way, so it changes reality.

Michalina:

Isn't there a lot of depth to that?

Rob:

There is, and there's actually research to, to evidence it.

Rob:

No!

Rob:

Yeah no, because people who swear feel less pain, and it's

Rob:

because they release that tension.

Rob:

So there

Michalina:

we go.

Michalina:

I'm.

Michalina:

I honestly, I claim that was my grandma.

Michalina:

That's what she told me.

Michalina:

Whatever research was done.

Michalina:

I don't know it was my grandma.

Michalina:

So don't take it away.

Rob:

That's great.

Rob:

And I think also like the whole taboo about swearing because like my

Rob:

mom would always, don't swear, what that's doing is it's constraining and

Rob:

it's what's wrong with a swear word.

Rob:

It's in the vocabulary.

Rob:

So why not say it?

Rob:

But then we have all these kind of taboos and I think that's probably

Rob:

really what you do is people are programmed with all these kind of taboos.

Rob:

And they're constrained of, you can't do this, you must do this, you must do this.

Rob:

And what you're really doing is opening them up and freeing them to have a

Rob:

more authentic, a more true, real

Michalina:

experience.

Michalina:

I think that's a lovely attempt of putting a label on this.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

But that's okay.

Michalina:

Yes, I think it's about creativity in shifts that you want to make.

Michalina:

Do what you want to do on purpose, with purpose, aligned to this.

Michalina:

Then find the right tools that work for you.

Michalina:

Make the right shifts that will help you to get there, but not because they

Michalina:

are right by someone else's standards.

Michalina:

Whether it's cultural conditioning, economical, social, or organizational,

Michalina:

or hierarchical, or whatever else, but do it the way that works for you.

Michalina:

So I think that's what what truly matters and what truly is important,

Michalina:

when the meaning can happen for you.

Michalina:

And once you have that, and you feel that, and you understand that, you

Michalina:

can align all the other resources.

Michalina:

And then you just need a bit of holding here and there around.

Michalina:

If you have those little wobbles, and you doubt yourself, and you listen to

Michalina:

your inner critic and everything else.

Michalina:

How do you make sure that the change is sustainable and in a way consistent

Michalina:

without taking away the fun of it?

Michalina:

No one says, Oh, you need to do the same thing for the rest of your life.

Michalina:

So there's a bit of leadership, self leadership, a little bit of empowerment,

Michalina:

a little bit of shifts in perspectives and creativity around what you want

Michalina:

to do and a whole host of other things

Rob:

too.

Rob:

I'm really curious.

Rob:

So what I've noticed and I do, I look for patterns.

Rob:

So I do use labels and things because what I try and do is from

Rob:

each individual is to make up a pattern to identify what's universal.

Rob:

So, when I talk to someone and talking about relationships, a question most

Rob:

people have, but they won't say until they kind of trust and they almost all

Rob:

say the same kind of question, but with different phrasing, which is, am I broken?

Rob:

Is it me?

Rob:

Am I unlovable?

Rob:

Is there something wrong with me?

Rob:

This is where I identified that relationship we have.

Rob:

We've been given a frame for relationships that doesn't work.

Rob:

And that's why most relationships, more relationships fail.

Rob:

By fail, I mean that they don't work as people expected them to.

Rob:

People take relationships not working as a failure for them and they take it as

Rob:

a sign that there's something wrong with them, and it plays into an insecurity

Rob:

and a doubt they're somehow broken.

Rob:

Is there a question that you see as a kind of a common thread?

Rob:

Reflecting

Michalina:

on what you just said I don't recall a question that would be a common

Michalina:

thread amongst the people that I'm thinking of now, and when I think about

Michalina:

what they bring to sessions with me.

Michalina:

But I can see a version.

Michalina:

of that sort of feeling of unbroken coming up.

Michalina:

So you've made me think here very deeply.

Michalina:

They do bring different versions of it.

Michalina:

There isn't a question that comes up that would sum up that pattern.

Michalina:

What I would say is there is a need for validation that it's okay to be

Michalina:

different to what it is that's been programmed to people that comes up in

Michalina:

a bear with me I'm replaying some of those conversations in my head now.

Michalina:

And it's quite interesting, you've said that there is a definition or a pattern of

Michalina:

relationship that's been given to us, and if it doesn't work for us, it's broken.

Michalina:

I wonder what you would call that pattern, or what is it specifically

Michalina:

that you would label it as?

Michalina:

Because across cultures, and I work with people from four different cultures at

Michalina:

the moment, there is So many different layers to understanding things and

Michalina:

defining things and I wonder whether what it is that you want to share actually

Michalina:

translates across those cultures.

Michalina:

So what do you mean by a definition of relationship that doesn't work?

Michalina:

Do you

Rob:

mean why the relationship doesn't work or?

Rob:

Okay.

Rob:

So we learn about relationships.

Rob:

So if you look at 70 percent of our neural pathways are laid down.

Rob:

By the age of seven.

Rob:

So basically after that, we have this kind of map of the world and we

Rob:

think we know it even if we don't.

Rob:

And that's where most of our, so I call it like the human operating system.

Rob:

And that's where most of our problems and our conflicts come from something

Rob:

that was in there, there's like a bug, if you look at how we learn about.

Rob:

relationships, most of it is from fairies stories or Disney films.

Rob:

And it's the princess meets the prince.

Rob:

And so we get what I call the four myths of the fairy tale, which

Rob:

is there's one out there for me.

Rob:

If I meet the one and I'm beautiful enough, or I'm gallant enough and

Rob:

charming enough, they'll fall in love.

Rob:

If the love is true, we'll live happily ever after.

Rob:

So what people expect is that they shouldn't have any problems.

Rob:

So when they, so they go into a relationship and five years later,

Rob:

they're got children, they're fed up with each other and.

Rob:

They're like, if he really loved me, he wouldn't do this.

Rob:

If she really loved me, she wouldn't do this.

Rob:

And so I go maybe they're not my one.

Rob:

And so rather than and so they think the problem is them.

Rob:

They're not lovable enough.

Rob:

They think the relationship that they haven't chosen the right one.

Rob:

And it's the same in teams as in like project Aristotle from Google, when

Rob:

they analyzed the makeup of teams, they were thinking, okay, we need to

Rob:

have the right blend of introverts.

Rob:

We need to have these people and these people.

Rob:

And what they found, it was nothing to do with that.

Rob:

It was psychological safety.

Rob:

It was how people interacted, not who interact.

Rob:

And so in relationship, the differences that like, like my favorite quote is

Rob:

Dan Wile always said, when you marry someone, you marry a set of problems.

Rob:

If you didn't marry this person, you wouldn't have these problems,

Rob:

but you'd have a different set.

Rob:

I love that.

Rob:

So

Michalina:

that's, I'm not a marriage counselor.

Michalina:

I wouldn't even want to dare to talk about that sort of stuff.

Michalina:

I've got loads of anecdotes from from my friends and family and everyone

Michalina:

else, but there is, there's quite a few interesting things in what you've.

Michalina:

shared.

Michalina:

So in terms of this whole one for me, happy ever after Disney model, I

Michalina:

think that comes a lot from religion and from ethical standpoints as well.

Michalina:

So forget Disney.

Michalina:

I grew up in communism.

Michalina:

I didn't watch Disney fairy tales until I was older than seven.

Michalina:

So that sort of came later, but there is a bit around how life should be.

Michalina:

And there is.

Michalina:

Christianity or whatever your religion is that gives you that model of how things

Michalina:

should be and is driven by something a lot bigger than you and so you need to comply

Michalina:

with this because otherwise you're broken.

Michalina:

So this is why I wanted to get into that definition of how do you understand that.

Michalina:

There is a lot around ways, social ways, of living in community that

Michalina:

dictates how our relationships should be and so you're broken if

Michalina:

you don't comply if you're different.

Michalina:

So there was a bit about that.

Michalina:

My husband is from South Africa and he grew up in an enclosed religious

Michalina:

community as a white family around problems with apartheid and longer.

Michalina:

There's so much culturally and socially and religiously that they took on as

Michalina:

a family around how life should be.

Michalina:

I grew up in communism and then capitalism that started emerging

Michalina:

and how different that was and how different Christianity is.

Michalina:

is there.

Michalina:

So there is a lot there on that front.

Michalina:

I think we all tend to go, if we don't comply with external norms, we are broken.

Michalina:

We don't know who we are and what we want.

Michalina:

So we try to fit in with different approaches.

Michalina:

When it comes to relationships that we think in those absolutes around one

Michalina:

forever, and if it doesn't work, it's me.

Michalina:

At work, I think it's a lot easier because we go if it doesn't work,

Michalina:

I'll go and find somewhere else.

Michalina:

And there is a lot more empowerment and a lot more choice.

Michalina:

And I think choice allows us to be more confident and empowered and

Michalina:

change jobs and change cultures.

Michalina:

But going back to the point that you mentioned around the the research

Michalina:

and around how we interact and how we, who are the people and how they

Michalina:

bring that additional element of culture and co-creation together

Michalina:

and that space that works and makes the two of you better then.

Michalina:

Some of parts of the two or the three or whatever, I think there is a lot of

Michalina:

learning there where we need to be very creative in how we put people together to

Michalina:

work together and towards what and what do we want them to achieve and giving people

Michalina:

freedom to actually make those decisions.

Michalina:

So there are two different things around those relationships, conditioning

Michalina:

and what do we want in a workplace?

Michalina:

Which

Rob:

comes back to your point about intention, intentionality

Rob:

and starting with purpose.

Rob:

Absolutely.

Michalina:

And I think there is a little bit about consumerism of work

Michalina:

as well and how we change things.

Michalina:

And technology has changed our lives massively.

Michalina:

The way we grew up and what we were prepared for is very

Michalina:

different to how we live our lives.

Michalina:

now.

Michalina:

And being in a global village and working in global teams changes things completely.

Michalina:

We were probably growing up in situations where anything that was

Michalina:

different as in not good enough or less than or maybe a bit suspicious.

Michalina:

Whilst now we work in global teams and we have to navigate all

Michalina:

those things for a common purpose.

Michalina:

Our parents didn't have a clue what it was all about when they were in the workplace.

Michalina:

And now.

Michalina:

the rise of short term contracts and working on assignments and freelance

Michalina:

work and starting businesses.

Michalina:

None of that socially or economically was possible 20, 30, 50 years ago.

Michalina:

Now is, it's very easily accessible.

Michalina:

So it's about, so what's the purpose?

Michalina:

What's the intention?

Michalina:

What do I want out of it?

Michalina:

What do we collectively want for this particular project?

Michalina:

What's our common outcome that we want to work towards?

Michalina:

And so then we need to start thinking about the set of tools, set of

Michalina:

problems, set of skill sets, and they're called people, and then how do

Michalina:

they interact towards that one thing?

Michalina:

Not forever, not in absolutes.

Michalina:

but for outcomes for common goals.

Michalina:

And I suppose if we then take that and we go back to your point around

Michalina:

relationships one forever, we could say, okay, so throughout your life, you

Michalina:

look for a father for your children.

Michalina:

And once you're done and they grown up, that's it.

Michalina:

The project is done, right?

Michalina:

Consumerism of marriage.

Michalina:

And then you look for a partner to travel the world with

Michalina:

for the next 10 or 15 years.

Michalina:

That's it.

Michalina:

And then you look for someone to retire with and have someone to be buried with.

Michalina:

I've heard this once as an expression that someone was looking for someone else to

Michalina:

end their life, to be with to the rest of their lives and be buried with, because

Michalina:

they didn't want to be buried alone.

Michalina:

Maybe that's the answer to, I don't know.

Michalina:

I don't even want to touch that sphere, not my area of expertise, but if we play

Michalina:

around with those approaches, absolute versus creative, I suppose we could talk

Michalina:

about that, but we need to be mindful of religious, cultural, social, economic

Michalina:

conditioning and everything else.

Rob:

Definitely.

Rob:

I'm really interested in, I'm fascinated by the idea of what it must have been like

Rob:

growing up in, in a communist environment, and then suddenly everything changing,

Rob:

yeah, can you share anything about that?

Rob:

Can

Michalina:

you share a child or early teenage years, and then that sort

Michalina:

of how I was uncovering those things and influences throughout my life

Michalina:

obviously I wasn't an adult when all of this happened, it was my parents,

Michalina:

it's an interesting one because only as an adult you discover what impacted

Michalina:

you and shaped you and where it comes from when you start reflecting you

Michalina:

don't understand that at that time.

Michalina:

I remember, and that everyone was supposed to be the same.

Michalina:

Everyone was supposed to do the same thing.

Michalina:

There was a script and a plan, you just needed to follow it.

Michalina:

It was very easy.

Michalina:

It was all about being super resourceful around how do you get food on the table?

Michalina:

How do you make sure that your kids have shoes and clothes and go to school?

Michalina:

But we all had this pattern to follow.

Michalina:

It was all very simple.

Michalina:

I remember my parents saying that they were brought up in deep

Michalina:

communism and then life changed.

Michalina:

They had absolutely no work skills whatsoever, because the job was given

Michalina:

and you worked in the same place for a whole year, their whole life.

Michalina:

So for us, they had to figure out how to do themselves to then tell us,

Michalina:

Oh, it's okay to choose the job you want to do, who do you want to be?

Michalina:

Oh no, it's okay to say you want to do this or that.

Michalina:

So they had to learn a lot to then bring us up.

Michalina:

I remember that everyone was happy and everyone had the same thing.

Michalina:

I don't recall jealousy in school because someone had better clothes or

Michalina:

better shoes or there were no gadgets or computers or phones or anything like that.

Michalina:

So it was very easy in a way.

Michalina:

We were all poor.

Michalina:

We all had jumpers made by our grandmas from older jumpers.

Michalina:

We all knew what to do and how life was a lot simpler, but in a way.

Michalina:

When you then grow up and actually, there is competition, there is choice, there

Michalina:

are new things you need to deal with.

Michalina:

There is a million more decisions to make than you thought that you

Michalina:

had to as a young teenager or adult.

Michalina:

That was all very frightening later on.

Michalina:

Then you started seeing those differences in the society when

Michalina:

suddenly people were very rich.

Michalina:

So if they, so there's this saying around if someone is a rich capitalist, surely

Michalina:

they must have stolen their first million.

Michalina:

So there is no other way.

Michalina:

You have to steal to have more than other people.

Michalina:

Because all honest, hardworking people have jobs that are given to them.

Michalina:

And so life goes on da.

Michalina:

So all that cultural conditioning then stays with you.

Michalina:

And you've got all those massive beliefs about things.

Michalina:

Obviously that's how things are, right?

Michalina:

And then you end up with capitalism.

Michalina:

and a different way of thinking where you go, whoa, okay, this is very different.

Michalina:

And by the way, there's a religion and philosophy and

Michalina:

everything else that goes with it.

Michalina:

So yeah, just a few nuggets

Rob:

there.

Rob:

That's fascinating because I can see a direct, how that kind of, it must have

Rob:

been a struggle from your teenage to young adult lives of coping with the

Rob:

choice and coping with that change.

Rob:

And it seems that a direct parallel between what you now do for other people.

Michalina:

Hey, tell me more.

Michalina:

That's interesting.

Michalina:

I think there is always the link.

Michalina:

Sometimes we are aware of it and sometimes not.

Michalina:

One of the things that very recently discovered about myself is that

Michalina:

one of my greatest strengths that I'm really proud of is that I can

Michalina:

make something out of nothing.

Michalina:

I can be extremely resourceful and nothing will ever faze me.

Michalina:

I will find a way.

Michalina:

And I was talking about it and reflecting on it.

Michalina:

And it was quite interesting that my friends play that back to me

Michalina:

that's how they see me as well.

Michalina:

But it turns out that stops me from having an abundance mindset, because

Michalina:

I'm so used to having scarcity mindset as a starting point, so

Michalina:

I can go with my resourcefulness.

Michalina:

That I can't skip that point, I can't have an abandoned mountain,

Michalina:

because I don't know what it's like.

Michalina:

Everything that I know is scarcity first, plus resourcefulness,

Michalina:

but then creates amazing things.

Michalina:

And I suppose And that's just a bit of a, about me, but what I do with the people

Michalina:

who sit in front of me is I truly listen to what they bring, what patterns come up,

Michalina:

and then just help them understand those.

Michalina:

It's not about my interpretations on those things, but bringing them

Michalina:

back alive to the conversation.

Michalina:

Very much what you've just done with me, that you see a pattern and an impact.

Michalina:

Of course, there is always one.

Michalina:

Sometimes we're not aware of where it comes from, but there is.

Michalina:

And with my husband, he had a very different upbringing.

Michalina:

He experienced a lot of different things that I didn't even know existed.

Michalina:

I remember as a teenager, I only only ever knew one black person.

Michalina:

And it was incredible.

Michalina:

And my mom was friends with him and they worked together.

Michalina:

It was incredible.

Michalina:

Such a completely different, fascinating culture and way of living

Michalina:

and stories told and everything else.

Michalina:

For him, it was very different.

Michalina:

It was half society and constant struggles and changes and

Michalina:

what's right, what's wrong.

Michalina:

A world that I never really knew or understood.

Michalina:

Yeah, so much there.

Rob:

I think, like, when someone gets in a romantic relationship, for the first time,

Rob:

what they've grown up in a world that they thought everyone else was like them.

Rob:

And then suddenly, they go into a different household where they've got,

Rob:

someone with completely different culture and experiences, and ways of interacting.

Rob:

And I think.

Rob:

I think that's what relationship does, is that our differences, if

Rob:

we're able to, this is my thing of disagree without drama, so that if

Rob:

we're able to learn from each other and share each other's perspectives.

Rob:

Then we can broaden and we can overcome our own blind spots.

Michalina:

A hundred percent.

Michalina:

I agree with that.

Michalina:

But it's hard work and it's daily from the point of, so hang on a minute.

Michalina:

So do you catch a virus?

Michalina:

If you walk without slippers on, from that sort of level

Michalina:

of problems and you Google it.

Michalina:

So do you, or do you not?

Michalina:

Cause in my world, they say this and in your world, they say that

Michalina:

I've got millions of those type of conversations to what's the right

Michalina:

thing to do offer five cookies.

Michalina:

Okay.

Michalina:

Bye.

Michalina:

to five people you invited or for the whole cake to those five

Michalina:

people you invited, what's the right thing to do, I think, again,

Michalina:

I'm not a marriage counselor.

Michalina:

Oh, it's not my, it's not my bag.

Michalina:

But for me, there's a lot around cultures that work that influence how

Michalina:

you think and who you are and how you change and the masks that you put on.

Michalina:

Because you try to fit in different organizations and cultures.

Michalina:

And there are different ways of doing things and different expectations.

Michalina:

And you suddenly, you may be a high performer in one and suddenly

Michalina:

an underperformer in another.

Michalina:

And you go, hang on a minute, how is that possible?

Michalina:

Because the set of expectations and influences is such that it's not for you.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

And you need to go somewhere else to find a way for yourself to feel good.

Michalina:

And then again, wherever you go, you take yourself with you.

Michalina:

So is it you or is it the circumstances?

Michalina:

So there is always this play around what's happening internally, what's

Michalina:

happening externally for you.

Michalina:

But essentially, if you give yourself permission to test and try different

Michalina:

places to see what it's like to feel what it's like to be under certain

Michalina:

influences from that organization.

Michalina:

In terms of, what the reward looks like performance goals, achievements

Michalina:

progression, and everything else you want to who are your type of

Michalina:

people that you want to work with?

Michalina:

Are they there?

Michalina:

Are they not there?

Michalina:

And how they impact you?

Michalina:

And, How do they help you grow as well?

Michalina:

Do you want to be a superstar in one team of monists and underperformers?

Michalina:

Or do you want to be the one who's got a long way to go amongst truly amazing

Michalina:

things, the people who do amazing things?

Michalina:

So there's a lot of questions and balances that you need to go

Michalina:

through when it comes to that.

Michalina:

So yeah, with those relationships, whether they're personal or work ones.

Michalina:

There's so many things that need to align for you to fit in and feel

Michalina:

good But as I said, you always take yourself with you wherever you go.

Rob:

Yeah, that's the common thread.

Rob:

You touched upon something that I was I had in my head to ask and that is success

Rob:

and value are really about context.

Rob:

And there's some contexts that you're succeeding and

Rob:

there's some that you won't.

Rob:

So I've noticed there's a clear delineation between who I can work

Rob:

with successfully and who I can't.

Rob:

And.

Rob:

I first came up with it is I think some people are power seekers.

Rob:

They want to dominate.

Rob:

And then someone else phrased it for me as they're people who want to be right.

Rob:

Whereas I find I work with truth seekers, people who want to get

Rob:

to the root of what it really is.

Rob:

And she rephrased that to people who want to get it right.

Rob:

Because the people who want to get it right are willing to change

Rob:

and they're willing to adapt.

Rob:

They're looking for the perspective that's going to help them help everyone succeed.

Rob:

Where's the.

Rob:

What I call the power seekers are looking to be right and they're looking to

Rob:

fit everyone else to make them right.

Rob:

So Who do you find that your work resonates with best and is there?

Rob:

Instances where of the people who it's not who you don't gel with and

Rob:

you don't Have as much success with

Michalina:

that's an interesting question It reminds me of my philosophy

Michalina:

studies 20 years ago And those questions around, so are there absolutes?

Michalina:

Is there an absolute love, absolute truth, absolute this or that or the

Michalina:

other, or do we make it to be as such in relationship to ourselves in some way?

Michalina:

So you just brought that back for me.

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

I haven't thought about it from this perspective.

Michalina:

It's an interesting challenge.

Michalina:

If I think about this from psychometrics perspectives and all those tests that

Michalina:

we can do to try to understand a way how we show up and how we relate to others.

Michalina:

So all my tests will tell you that I'm there to support others, but

Michalina:

influence drive focus on performance achievement and completion of stuff.

Michalina:

So that would imply ego and that would imply people who

Michalina:

would follow, and I would.

Michalina:

lead them or drive them in a way, but equally the tools that I use.

Michalina:

mean that I take a step back and I drive or influence through questions, but they

Michalina:

do the work so they are in a driving seat.

Michalina:

So I'm changing their power dynamic in a way.

Michalina:

So it's really difficult to answer your question.

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

All I can tell you is that I wouldn't work with everyone.

Michalina:

You will need to come to me and have a conversation with me.

Michalina:

And I would know whether we're right for each other or not.

Michalina:

And you would know that too.

Michalina:

I'm very much a hot and cold person.

Michalina:

There, there is no, maybe that doesn't work neither for you or me.

Michalina:

So if that helps, perhaps, then you tell me what you're hearing

Michalina:

and how would you categorize this?

Michalina:

Labels are more your thing than mine.

Michalina:

But I think there is a bit about honesty.

Michalina:

Cause it's not about me being successful.

Michalina:

It's about what successful means to you.

Michalina:

I know what.

Michalina:

I consider a good session.

Michalina:

I know what my goals are for you as my client.

Michalina:

But they don't matter if you have taken what you need to have taken from it from

Michalina:

that conversation from that session.

Michalina:

So there's that ego balance of, I can put that aside.

Michalina:

It's not about me, my success.

Michalina:

It's about your success, my success can be looked at differently.

Michalina:

And then, again, if I coach as part of a job.

Michalina:

HR job and organizational context that's different versus one to one tailored

Michalina:

conversations to what it is that you need.

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

You tell me what you've picked up.

Michalina:

I'm fascinated.

Rob:

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because I think.

Rob:

So I can relate to when you talk about, you were talking about, I can't remember

Rob:

the exact words, but getting on someone's levels that you're listening to them.

Rob:

So for me, the way I think of that is when I'm talking to

Rob:

someone about relationships, all I need to do is listen to them.

Rob:

I need to let them speak about whatever they want to speak about,

Rob:

because the very words, when I listen, it's someone's drawing me a

Rob:

map of what's going on in their head.

Rob:

And there I can see immediately their blind spots and I know, okay, you need

Rob:

this, and that's how it works for me.

Rob:

That's the metaphor I have or the visualization.

Rob:

But what I do is.

Rob:

I take individual experience and I strip the individual out of it so I

Rob:

get principles so minus I abstract and I find this, my biggest struggle

Rob:

is being relatable, when I'm writing is that because When someone tells me

Rob:

something, this is why I see patterns quite quickly, because I'll hear

Rob:

something and I'll go, okay, it's that.

Rob:

So over and over again, I've seen relationships and I

Rob:

was going, okay, it's that.

Rob:

Hang on, this is the same as this, even though the

Rob:

circumstances look very different.

Rob:

But I strip away the emotion and I look at the structural logistics of it.

Rob:

So it makes perfect sense.

Rob:

That I get to see patterns and I classify things as patterns.

Rob:

And I think, okay, here's the universal pattern where and then I can look at

Rob:

someone and I can say, okay you're doing this and this would help.

Rob:

Whereas you

Michalina:

fantastic for a counselor because that's

Michalina:

essentially your job, right?

Michalina:

You need to help someone make sense of what's going on.

Michalina:

So it completely makes sense.

Michalina:

You your ability and your talent is totally aligned with.

Michalina:

What are you doing?

Michalina:

The next thing for you is teaching.

Michalina:

Just put it in books and share with the world so they can learn from you.

Rob:

That's the idea.

Rob:

There we go.

Rob:

Yeah, no,

Michalina:

sorry, I

Rob:

interrupted you.

Rob:

No, no problem.

Rob:

Yeah

Rob:

and part of that comes from me, so like my, what I was talking about

Rob:

today, I've never really belonged to a group because of my own experiences in

Rob:

growing up and my own decisions, so I'm good at analyzing, but where, so where

Rob:

we contrast is you are right in it.

Rob:

You are really empathic.

Rob:

You are feeling the emotion.

Rob:

Whereas, I understand emotions and I understand what emotion someone's feeling,

Rob:

I'm looking at like the logistics.

Rob:

If we change this, you can change your emotion.

Rob:

And.

Rob:

I think that where you are is you're right in the emotion and you're feeling

Rob:

it and you're really getting a much, a rich understanding of where someone is.

Rob:

And your, the visualization that comes to me is it's like more like music

Rob:

for you, that you're listening and it's like a symphony and you're, and

Rob:

I can imagine like a piano tuner and go, hang on, that's a little bit off.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

I love that.

Michalina:

Thank you.

Michalina:

I needed to hear this.

Michalina:

Fantastic.

Michalina:

This is why we're talking today.

Michalina:

That's my takeaway.

Michalina:

Love this.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

So if I describe it in, not in coaching terms, therapeutic terms or anything

Michalina:

else, but in my own true way of how I see it is that I can tune into what

Michalina:

it is you are saying and feeling.

Michalina:

I can see through all of this.

Michalina:

I'd like to be able to say that there is a bit of a gift there where I can

Michalina:

see past and through and I can feel it with you, but still be objective to you.

Michalina:

Yes, using your analogy, I can find you in different things.

Michalina:

I can filter your emotion and help you change them.

Michalina:

So I don't tell you what needs to happen.

Michalina:

You do it yourself.

Michalina:

I just impact the right.

Michalina:

things at the right time and the change happens and the shift happens,

Michalina:

the things come up in conversations that very often comes out in tears

Michalina:

and grand words and realizations and shifts and some those so called

Michalina:

aha moments and sometimes in silence that's so profound and so incredible.

Michalina:

Did you feel like you've just had a cathartic experience because

Michalina:

it just shifted something and you can't even explain what it is?

Michalina:

So yes, I tune in.

Michalina:

I can feel what you feel, but be objective enough to say, and here's

Michalina:

the way, but you do the steps.

Michalina:

You come out of that and you change and you felt and the shift happens

Michalina:

in you, not in me, in a way.

Michalina:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Michalina:

But I'm loving the whole tuning the piano.

Michalina:

Yes, I did play the piano for eight years.

Michalina:

Hated it.

Michalina:

But this whole tuning thing completely makes sense.

Michalina:

Cause you just know which part where just doesn't quite adapt.

Michalina:

So the whole feeling of the symphony or the sonata or anything

Michalina:

else makes sense or doesn't.

Michalina:

I how do you sell that, Rob?

Michalina:

Tell me, how do you market that?

Michalina:

That's not coaching conversation.

Michalina:

Is it ? Yeah.

Michalina:

I,

Rob:

I think I think there's maybe something in that piano, but see, I see.

Rob:

I think like what the point I was trying to make to today in my

Rob:

post was that I think people, when people are making a transition.

Rob:

They feel, doubt, insecurity.

Rob:

And so they get, they become an ICF coach or they become a trainer or

Rob:

they become a mediator or whatever.

Rob:

And I know coaching and that there'll be like, everyone needs a coach and

Rob:

they'll give you this framework.

Rob:

And people will then go out and sell themselves as an ICF code.

Rob:

And that's a commodity.

Rob:

And your coach my coach, however we do it, we're going to do it individual.

Rob:

And it's your own thing that you need to sell.

Rob:

You need to, there's your essence that comes through and you can do it

Rob:

in a mode, but it's your essence that is the key and that's the individual

Rob:

element and that's what we need to, and it's part of what you do is have

Rob:

the confidence to step into that.

Michalina:

And this is why this profession is an art and this is not the process.

Michalina:

You can throw any AI at coaching that you want, it's not gonna work.

Michalina:

You can throw any processes that you want, or accreditations,

Michalina:

or scripts, or anything else.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

Maybe it helps someone somewhere.

Michalina:

I don't know.

Michalina:

I'm not going to make round statements, but the true essence of change for

Michalina:

someone, call it transformation is the, is walking along together on

Michalina:

that journey that needs to happen.

Michalina:

But you're doing the work.

Michalina:

And it's hard and it needs the right person with you.

Michalina:

And we back to the conversation around, it needs to be the right

Michalina:

counselor, the right coach, but not the techniques and accreditations around it.

Michalina:

These are tools.

Michalina:

And yes, go out there and get the best tools you can.

Michalina:

I'm very keen on having the best tools in my toolkit, but it's me and

Michalina:

my ability to be an empath, to use my intuition, to see through and beyond

Michalina:

and listen so deeply as no one else.

Michalina:

Listen to you before to then say, okay, and these are the combinations

Michalina:

of tools I'm going to use to do this one particular thing for you, but

Michalina:

you do the work, by the way, not me.

Michalina:

Yeah, we can call it in this way if we want to talk about true essence

Michalina:

of relationship of the two people for a purpose, for an outcome of some

Michalina:

kind of a change that again, changes along the way, because it's a process.

Michalina:

It's really hard to explain in words.

Michalina:

The best thing for me is when someone says, Oh yes, I know

Michalina:

I've had coaching, I get it.

Michalina:

Then you know that you need to feel it rather than listen or read or explain it.

Michalina:

So very often what I would do is say, Hey, come and have a coaching

Michalina:

experience session with me.

Michalina:

Feel it, experience it.

Michalina:

And you tell me what the value of it is for you.

Michalina:

And you tell me whether this is what you're after.

Michalina:

Because you don't know.

Michalina:

You come in with symptoms.

Michalina:

I tell you these are the causes.

Michalina:

You think this is the goal I'm working towards, you end up with something

Michalina:

completely different and you're happy.

Michalina:

How do you marken that?

Michalina:

Again, back to experience and the essence.

Rob:

I think, the problem is an experience is, it's diminished when

Rob:

you try and translate into words.

Rob:

And.

Rob:

Yeah, it's one of those things that you have to experience, to

Rob:

be able to, yeah, to understand because you can say the words.

Rob:

And I think this is why one of the questions that puzzles me is, so my

Rob:

daughters are in their 20s now and I see, There's stuff that I didn't see when I

Rob:

was 20, but you see when you're older and you've been through it and you're

Rob:

like And they're like, yeah dad Life's different now And Yeah, it's just and

Rob:

I think there's something that people have to go through the experience before

Rob:

they can learn the lesson completely

Michalina:

completely and you know that it's a wonderful thing that you guys

Michalina:

are talking and she's still listening and she's not telling you to go away.

Michalina:

She just says, it's different now, dad.

Michalina:

I think you're already a winner that you got to that place.

Michalina:

I can see the massive changes with my daughter who's 13 and what she needed

Michalina:

last month and what she needs today.

Michalina:

I still don't know whether today I'm going to have a child or a teenager.

Michalina:

Just don't know.

Michalina:

I just need to deal with it as the day comes.

Michalina:

But yes, when you think back to when there were toddlers.

Michalina:

You didn't stop them from falling.

Michalina:

They had to learn to walk.

Michalina:

Every time they fell, you would be like, Yay!

Michalina:

You fell!

Michalina:

Look what you've learned!

Michalina:

Off you go!

Michalina:

Back around that sofa again!

Michalina:

Go cruising and learn!

Michalina:

It's the same as when they're older, and the same for people.

Michalina:

Sometimes you need to experience those things.

Michalina:

And that sort of brings us into A conversation about trauma, how

Michalina:

do you explain to someone life transformations if they've never

Michalina:

felt any traumatic experiences?

Michalina:

I don't think you can.

Michalina:

I think everyone needs to go through whatever trauma is for them to understand

Michalina:

the value, the gravity, the impact and everything else to then say, Hey, and

Michalina:

I value this and I'm grateful for that.

Michalina:

So I'm grateful.

Michalina:

I don't think we, we should be avoiding anything, living, feeling, going through

Michalina:

it and learning from experiences.

Michalina:

Yes, absolutely.

Rob:

It really comes down to what is life about?

Rob:

Is it about the outcome or is it about the journey?

Rob:

And yeah, I think you're right that we have to, it's about how we

Rob:

navigate through all of those things.

Michalina:

That's my view.

Michalina:

That's my thing.

Michalina:

I'm happy to be proven different, if there is a different way, if there is

Michalina:

a different app, I'm happy to try it, test it, feel it, try to understand

Michalina:

it, but the way I see it as I am now, at nearly 40 that's what it is.

Michalina:

Live through it and find your own way, navigate it, learn it,

Michalina:

use tools, but live through it.

Rob:

I'm

Michalina:

loving this whole psychotherapy moment here.

Michalina:

It's I'm learning so much about myself.

Michalina:

Thank you.

Rob:

When someone's making that transformation, what's

Rob:

the barriers that they face?

Michalina:

There are two things.

Michalina:

There are two things.

Michalina:

One is this constant self doubt and inner critic and this pattern that drives you.

Michalina:

Call it the paradigm, call it a belief system, call it whatever

Michalina:

you want, that programming that goes, Whoa, this is so different

Michalina:

to everything you've done before.

Michalina:

You're so not doing this.

Michalina:

So that's your internal conversation, but to the people

Michalina:

who matter to you in your life.

Michalina:

And they're not going through that change, you are, so suddenly you're different

Michalina:

and it's threatening to them because it changes the story and the context.

Michalina:

So these are those two battles that you will be having as you are changing

Michalina:

yourself and it's hard and it takes time.

Michalina:

And this is why you keep going back to a coach or a therapist because

Michalina:

you can't just go, okay, so here's a download, I'm going to insert

Michalina:

a new program and we're done.

Michalina:

doesn't work this way, because there's that ripple effect of changes

Michalina:

that need to be addressed too.

Rob:

Yeah, it's because, I can't remember where I heard this yeah, I it was another

Rob:

conversation I had with Tony Walmsley, and he talked about in football, you've got

Rob:

kind of, 11 players, and he was talking about Liverpool when they took Mane out.

Rob:

It just changed everything because the whole dynamics and everything.

Rob:

So in a team, or in a work environment, or even a home environment, when

Rob:

one person changes, it changes the dynamics for everyone.

Rob:

And when people haven't consciously changed, chosen that change,

Rob:

if they're not excited about the change, they're threatened.

Rob:

And so when I look back, my journey started, I had a gym, and I was looking

Rob:

at why don't people stick to their diet?

Rob:

And then knowing in the nutrition and why don't people stick to their diet?

Rob:

Why don't they stick to the thing?

Rob:

And I ended up.

Rob:

Go into therapy and I ended up rather than selling gym

Rob:

memberships, I was doing therapy.

Rob:

And it was but what I learned was that people start a gym

Rob:

because of a relationship problem.

Rob:

Either they're thinking of leaving, they think their partner's

Rob:

cheating or something like that.

Rob:

There's usually something to do with a relationship.

Rob:

And then in about three months, that problem's passed.

Rob:

And so they no longer want to go to the gym anymore.

Rob:

But so I can see a direct thread right back 30 years ago.

Rob:

Yeah.

Rob:

So when everyone changes, so how, when do you see that successful?

Rob:

And when do you see someone being held back by those, the

Rob:

relationships around them, there's going to be a natural resistance.

Rob:

This is how I see you.

Rob:

I don't want to see you different.

Rob:

Why are you changing?

Rob:

Like lots of people talk about this.

Rob:

They go into personal growth for, they start a business and

Rob:

they become more successful.

Rob:

It's why lottery winners are less happy after because they no

Rob:

longer have the relationships.

Rob:

They don't fit into the new set and yet their role, like it changes

Rob:

their relationships so much that they can't really maintain them.

Rob:

So what do you see and how do you see when it's successful and when it isn't?

Michalina:

I think again, it's two things.

Michalina:

It's adaptability and communication, because if you change for yourself, By,

Michalina:

by yourself and you don't communicate what has changed, you will suddenly

Michalina:

have very different expectations that have never been communicated

Michalina:

and you're right there in a, rift and grating and all you get is fights,

Michalina:

misunderstanding and you start drifting.

Michalina:

And there is a bit about adaptability of the other person too.

Michalina:

It's almost if my husband is on a diet, I'm on a diet

Michalina:

with him if I like it or not.

Michalina:

I will moan.

Michalina:

I will not be happy.

Michalina:

But I have to adapt to his diet.

Michalina:

Simple as that.

Michalina:

But again, I am not here to give marriage advice.

Michalina:

But couldn't be further from it.

Michalina:

But when you and when you at work and you change one team player, you need

Michalina:

to be very mindful of what culture and environment you want to have.

Michalina:

And then you bring in the right people driving those changes, raising standards.

Michalina:

influencing behaviors, and it spreads.

Michalina:

You can be inspired by those new team members, you can be in competition with

Michalina:

them, you can learn from them, you can, whatever the relationship you go into with

Michalina:

them is, but if you're adaptable, you take something from it and something positive.

Michalina:

So very often what I see is that when team members are changed in teams, it's

Michalina:

usually underperformance are Managed out in some way and you bring in new

Michalina:

superstars, you need to be very careful what type of superstars you bring because

Michalina:

they will have an impact on everything else, but the success of the team will

Michalina:

come from those other people successfully adapting to those new relationships.

Michalina:

So whether it's you and your husband or whether it's a team, it's how

Michalina:

do you adapt to those changes.

Michalina:

And then if it's you going for a coaching and you're changing,

Michalina:

it's about unfortunately.

Michalina:

People around you and they adaptability because they will drive you back to now

Michalina:

don't be stupid, this will never work.

Michalina:

Of course, she said this and that because you're paying her to do that.

Michalina:

And we're back to square one.

Michalina:

So it's about that adaptability.

Michalina:

So what I would suggest is that people have those conversations in their

Michalina:

relationships before they attempt coaching or therapy because You they

Michalina:

need to be with you in that, basically.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Rob:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Rob:

And I'm guessing sometimes there's a subtext.

Rob:

Sometimes there's a change that we want to make.

Rob:

And I'm wondering maybe subconsciously or not, whether they were already

Rob:

looking at changing those relationships.

Rob:

Whether there was a relationship issue.

Michalina:

It's an interesting one.

Michalina:

I focus very much about work and work context.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

But very often problems happen from relationship with your boss.

Michalina:

And, you can talk about leadership or the right behaviors all day long.

Michalina:

There is so much stuff happening that are shocking still and will be

Michalina:

that you almost need to lower the standards and deal with the basics.

Michalina:

First, so very often you want a different job or you want to be

Michalina:

successful because you're not in the relationship with your boss who you're

Michalina:

trying to change and they won't.

Michalina:

So if we take that as a starting point, and I've seen this a few times, is that

Michalina:

then you need to be very clear on what relationship you actually want first.

Michalina:

And if this is the root cause of your problem, what can you do about those?

Michalina:

And what does it tell you about you before you deal with, and now I want

Michalina:

a new job and I want more money and I want this promotion and everything else,

Michalina:

because maybe you don't want a promotion.

Michalina:

You just want to run away from that person you work for at the

Michalina:

moment, but we back to the symptoms versus root causes conversation.

Michalina:

Yeah.

Michalina:

Sometimes what I see is that.

Michalina:

You can have the most amazing job and take a bigger remit and go from

Michalina:

one region to the other and add another one and have a global role.

Michalina:

But actually, when you distill the problems that you're running away from

Michalina:

is the way, what your parents put into you and how they taught you about life,

Michalina:

career and success that you're struggling with because you're trying to match their

Michalina:

expectations and have the career for them.

Michalina:

So you actually get their love and attention and

Michalina:

approval and everything else.

Michalina:

And this is a really hard one.

Michalina:

And this sometimes creates that tension around is this coaching, is this therapy?

Michalina:

And what's the ethical standpoint?

Michalina:

What, which way do you take here?

Michalina:

So I've found myself in this situation and I needed to be very clear that these

Michalina:

are the things that I can help you with.

Michalina:

This is what I'm seeing.

Michalina:

But if you want to explore those areas a bit deeper, that,

Michalina:

unfortunately, that's not me ethically.

Michalina:

I cannot help you with this.

Michalina:

I'm not qualified.

Michalina:

I'm not prepared.

Michalina:

I wouldn't be able to help you to the level you need.

Michalina:

But if we talk about these bits, yes, absolutely.

Michalina:

And we can do this.

Michalina:

Sometimes it can open up a lot of different avenues there.

Michalina:

But yes, you're right that you can actually trace it down to conversations

Michalina:

and relationships with certain people.

Michalina:

Before you start talking about goals and achievements and

Michalina:

success and everything else,

Rob:

it reminds me of that.

Rob:

I think there's a book.

Rob:

I think some like general or something.

Rob:

It's make the first thing you do make your bed.

Rob:

That's the same thing.

Rob:

Deal with what's in front of you.

Rob:

Deal with what's in front of you.

Rob:

Make that the best.

Rob:

And then Start to move on rather than try and move away.

Michalina:

Because again, you take yourself with you.

Michalina:

So you end up with the same pattern, the same relationship

Michalina:

of your boss or whoever else.

Michalina:

And until you deal with it, our minds want us to relive all those

Michalina:

patterns to find different solutions.

Rob:

How did you go from young Michelina to where you are now?

Rob:

What's the most significant experiences?

Rob:

What's the, influences that really moved you to where you are now and

Rob:

how you see the world as you see it?

Rob:

Wow, how

Michalina:

much time have we got?

Michalina:

Oh my goodness, that is such an interesting question.

Michalina:

The first immediate response is there've been a number of massive

Michalina:

shifts in my life that pushed me to the edge of understanding and coping

Michalina:

with stuff and taught me a lot of the things that are, I find now

Michalina:

very powerful and helpful to others.

Michalina:

But in the same way, since I was very little to just about to turn

Michalina:

40, I've always been very open and I've always reflected on stuff.

Michalina:

So it's a continuous process of what's that about?

Michalina:

Questioning, reflecting and learning.

Michalina:

So as much as there were powerful shifts, there's been this continuous journey.

Michalina:

So if I talk about my journey of How I ended up being a coach is

Michalina:

I've had quite a few careers and in each of them I've reflected

Michalina:

what is it that I really love here.

Michalina:

What what's my skill set and what, what works, why are people drawn to me?

Michalina:

Why am I successful in those things?

Michalina:

So I started out as a journalist.

Michalina:

I love people's stories.

Michalina:

I loved writing.

Michalina:

When I moved to the UK 18 years ago, I couldn't do that.

Michalina:

I tried writing feature articles for Polish media in London, but that was

Michalina:

a short lived dream and it stopped.

Michalina:

I then thought, I love business and I love people.

Michalina:

And I literally back then Googled, what jobs could I do

Michalina:

if I loved those two things?

Michalina:

And I was like, HR, what's that about?

Michalina:

I reinvented myself.

Michalina:

Firstly I couldn't be, I didn't believe that I could do this, so I reinvented

Michalina:

myself around being a teacher.

Michalina:

I thought, okay, so I've learned English in very quick, just over a

Michalina:

few years to a level that I'm good at.

Michalina:

People started asking me, how did you do this?

Michalina:

Can you teach me?

Michalina:

I said, yeah.

Michalina:

Here's what works.

Michalina:

So I reinvented my career to teaching English as a foreign language to

Michalina:

beginners and intermediate learners.

Michalina:

I then found jobs in language schools and then I looked at recruitment of

Michalina:

teachers going, what the hell is going on?

Michalina:

We can do this a lot better.

Michalina:

Until someone said, yes, how I'll give you a job.

Michalina:

So I ended up in recruitment.

Michalina:

of those teachers.

Michalina:

And then from recruitment, I was like, I'm a lot closer to this HR

Michalina:

thing that I liked a few years back.

Michalina:

And I went into HR, looked at journalists, then I found myself

Michalina:

being good at solving problems and helping managers solve theirs.

Michalina:

So I ended up in employee relations, dealing with the dark side of people.

Michalina:

Where you always deal with the hardest stuff that will test you in a way.

Michalina:

So I built my career around that and then after a while I realized

Michalina:

that the reason I'm successful and I can work with anyone and I can make

Michalina:

anything turn around or almost anything turn around is because I coach.

Michalina:

And people start to say, oh, you should be a coach.

Michalina:

I'm like, what's that?

Michalina:

Oh, okay.

Michalina:

So it's like a Socrates used to do.

Michalina:

I studied philosophy in Poland, and then I studied business management in the UK.

Michalina:

So I started putting things together into patterns and I thought, okay,

Michalina:

I can do something with that.

Michalina:

And that's how I got into coaching informally and then starting seeing that.

Michalina:

I don't know what I'm doing, but they get the results out of it.

Michalina:

Hey how do I get a qualification for that?

Michalina:

And I did, and I qualified and I can now call myself a coach, but

Michalina:

it's very much about what happens.

Michalina:

In those deep conversations, it's not about accreditations

Michalina:

and it's not about the tools.

Michalina:

It's about how you use them that matters.

Michalina:

So back to my openness, my empathy, my looking for people and everything

Michalina:

else that's always been there.

Michalina:

But I would be lying if I didn't say that I've gone through, that I didn't go

Michalina:

through traumatic experiences in life.

Michalina:

I did.

Michalina:

My twenties and thirties were very traumatic.

Michalina:

And my biggest realizations and learnings come from those moments.

Michalina:

And the ability to tune in to what people feel and go through on a deeper

Michalina:

level, I suppose comes from that.

Michalina:

Because it's not about preaching or teaching, it's about understanding

Michalina:

and it's very different.

Michalina:

So I hope that answers your question on different

Rob:

levels.

Rob:

It does just lead to one question is, in those most traumatic times, did you have

Rob:

someone who you could have a conversation with who helped you through it to see it?

Michalina:

Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't.

Michalina:

And it was about that constant reflection.

Michalina:

What is really going on here for me?

Michalina:

And I think that.

Michalina:

There is this ongoing conversation.

Michalina:

So what do you pay a cultural psychologist for?

Michalina:

You just go there to talk, right?

Michalina:

The cynical mind will ask.

Michalina:

But sometimes you need someone to hold you and to talk because you're not

Michalina:

able to have the level of reflection or insight on your own that you would

Michalina:

do with the help of someone else.

Michalina:

So I very much see this as a way of sharing the skill set that I've got

Michalina:

with people who need it, because perhaps they have different one to me,

Michalina:

but they need the one that I've got.

Michalina:

So it's almost sharing a gift, if that makes sense.

Rob:

Yeah, no that's perfect.

Rob:

It's like at Christmas, we all give gifts.

Rob:

And it's a way that we show love and it's the way that we feel that we're

Rob:

loved and someone thought of us.

Rob:

I think life is really about, we all want, we can't be ourselves without having

Rob:

someone you couldn't really be yourself without someone to empathize and to coach

Rob:

and to have those conversations with.

Rob:

So it's.

Rob:

It's there's a, like the fabric of life, it needs all of it.

Rob:

And we need the problems in order to I learned that to come to terms

Rob:

with what's wrong, like what is wrong, because that's the context

Rob:

that gives you something to do.

Rob:

And so in the same way.

Rob:

I think what we really need is to reduce the friction in being able

Rob:

to give gifts, and take gifts.

Michalina:

And take it.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

And it can be very hard to take something from other people if you're a giver.

Michalina:

Totally.

Michalina:

Yes.

Michalina:

I like that.

Michalina:

I think essentially what you're saying is that it's all about being relational.

Michalina:

with things and people at the same time.

Michalina:

We can't express ourselves if we're not in a relation to something else.

Michalina:

So it's quite interesting.

Michalina:

There's no absolute, this is you and this is your authentic core

Michalina:

and this is this or this is that.

Michalina:

It's relational.

Michalina:

It's continuous.

Michalina:

I like that.

Michalina:

I like that very much.

Rob:

That's really what I see is if we can ease the relationships to create

Rob:

that trust and the communication and less of us in it and more of

Rob:

our gifts, then I think that's how we make the world a better place.

Michalina:

There we go.

Michalina:

That's your utopia and the perfect state and all of that.

Michalina:

And yes, that would be fantastic.

Rob:

I'm

Michalina:

an idealist.

Michalina:

Very clearly.

Michalina:

But hey, we can strive towards it, right?

Rob:

That's what gives us the purpose, or me anyway.

Michalina:

There you go, back to purpose, everything starts and

Rob:

ends.

Rob:

Thank you for sharing your story and your gifts with us.

Rob:

Thank you for having me.

Rob:

It's been fascinating,

Michalina:

I'm glad you say that.

Michalina:

Thank you very much for having me.

Michalina:

Thank you for listening.

Michalina:

Please like, share, subscribe, and leave a review so we can

Michalina:

spread more flow and unify teams.

Michalina:

If you're on LinkedIn, please connect with me, Rob McPhillips.

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About the Podcast

The Unified Team
One team. One Goal. How do we more successfully join with others to achieve more?
How do we join with others to achieve, belong and connect more with less friction?

Humans aren't the strongest or the fastest. Our superpower is working together. We are a social creature.

We need to belong and be valued within our tribe.

But we hit 3 main friction points in teams:

1. We lack trust because of a lack of integrity, suspicion and past resentments.
2. We don't communicate well because of fear, insecurity and feeling unsafe.
3. We have divided goals because of politics, power struggles and personality conflicts.

A team is two or more people joined to achieve the same goal. It can be a marriage. Or a multinational organisation.

The principles still apply

Every team needs communication, resources and energy to flow to where we need it when we need it.

The barrier is friction.

How do we reduce friction and get teams to flow?

That is the question we address in The Unified Team Podcast.