The First Question Every Leader Must Answer

Rob: 00:00:00

Can you explain exactly what it is you do?

Romana: 00:00:02

Okay I work mostly with leaders in companies or founders.

Romana: 00:00:07

they usually come to talk about business issues, but we always end up trying

Romana: 00:00:13

to put their life together all in all.

Romana: 00:00:16

Since I'm a huge believer in the work life integration or alignment, I don't believe

Romana: 00:00:22

there is a, just a Work slash and life.

Romana: 00:00:26

You just can't separate those and working with leaders.

Romana: 00:00:30

I actually see how both areas influence one another.

Romana: 00:00:34

But most of the leaders come to talk about business issues.

Romana: 00:00:37

It's easier to build trust to start with something that's not so personal.

Romana: 00:00:42

But we end up talking about how their personal life influences the business.

Romana: 00:00:49

So once we put their personal life skills together at least a little bit.

Romana: 00:00:54

It's a lot of work about building self awareness talking about emotions.

Romana: 00:01:00

I also like to include a theory about three brains.

Romana: 00:01:06

How our body actually, knows the information way up front than we realize.

Romana: 00:01:12

And then we moved to topics that are more related to the work itself because

Romana: 00:01:17

they now more space to talk about how to actually transfer this new knowledge

Romana: 00:01:25

and awareness to their teams and how they can actually do the work that

Romana: 00:01:29

they enjoy the most, that matters, that gives them meaning, and often we open

Romana: 00:01:37

the whole new horizons towards What is going to be left when they leave, be it

Romana: 00:01:45

being the company or literally what's the legacy they want to be building.

Rob: 00:01:50

Okay.

Rob: 00:01:50

So that seems pretty all encompass, all encompassing.

Rob: 00:01:53

Yeah it's often the issues are so often personal, but either there isn't the

Rob: 00:01:59

trust or there isn't the awareness until you start digging into them.

Rob: 00:02:02

So when you talked about the three brains, do you mean the triumvirate

Rob: 00:02:05

theory of, or are you talking about?

Rob: 00:02:07

The head,

Romana: 00:02:08

heart and gut.

Romana: 00:02:09

Yeah.

Romana: 00:02:09

The theory that's based on the idea that we have the same neurons

Romana: 00:02:14

in our brain, heart, and gut.

Romana: 00:02:16

Also the numbers are very different, we still process the informations.

Romana: 00:02:23

Those parts of the body send us information.

Romana: 00:02:25

So the theory is based on the fact that most people decide rationally,

Romana: 00:02:31

but if you are able to incorporate the information with your heart or gut or

Romana: 00:02:36

intuition is telling you, you are able to first make better aligned decisions.

Romana: 00:02:43

And you are in peace with them.

Romana: 00:02:46

You feel good about them.

Romana: 00:02:48

And of course they are directed towards usually your values or what

Romana: 00:02:52

matters, what gives you meaning.

Rob: 00:02:54

Okay.

Rob: 00:02:55

So how did you get into this?

Rob: 00:02:57

Because you were a HR professional.

Rob: 00:02:59

So what led you to that and why is it so important to you?

Romana: 00:03:02

Actually I started way back before I get into the HR because I have

Romana: 00:03:07

a master's in psychology and I know you studied psychology as well, so we probably

Romana: 00:03:12

have something very, similar in common.

Romana: 00:03:14

So I started my master's in psychology, but I always knew that I want to

Romana: 00:03:19

work In the field of organizational psychology, more than clinical psychology.

Romana: 00:03:25

So my focus has always been into how to apply psychology in the organizations.

Romana: 00:03:31

And since being a psychologist in organization at that time was not

Romana: 00:03:37

that, common, the way how to do it was to, work within an HR field.

Romana: 00:03:44

And there I was always able to find areas where my background was useful.

Romana: 00:03:51

I started working in talent development, I was part of the department that was taking

Romana: 00:03:57

care of, assessment for high potentials, the trainees through within the company.

Romana: 00:04:02

I was working in a HR marketing and building the HR brands or

Romana: 00:04:08

the company brands at that time.

Romana: 00:04:11

I ended up working as a HR business partner where.

Romana: 00:04:15

I could actually easily incorporate the psychology into coaching people.

Romana: 00:04:21

So I was either working with the employees who came for advice or usually a listening

Romana: 00:04:28

ear, or I was working with managers on their day to day operational issues.

Romana: 00:04:34

But of course, Through time, we built the relationship so that I

Romana: 00:04:38

was able also to, be the sparring partner for whatever issues they had.

Romana: 00:04:43

That when I actually realized that this is the core of what I enjoy.

Romana: 00:04:48

Yeah, I was still giving people what they wanted.

Romana: 00:04:51

Of course, because of the leaders or the managers in the corporations wanted

Romana: 00:04:56

to get the stuff done, hire, fire solve the organizational changes, advise with

Romana: 00:05:03

the employment law, but also I was able to connect with them and help them out

Romana: 00:05:08

how to work with their teams through the self discovery, how they actually do it.

Romana: 00:05:14

And of course, part of it was, advisory or mentoring.

Romana: 00:05:17

So no matter the tool I use, that's what I enjoyed the most.

Rob: 00:05:22

What was it about that, that you most enjoyed?

Romana: 00:05:25

Those late night meetings when I was sitting with the

Romana: 00:05:28

manager and he was explaining me the, how he's going to change the

Romana: 00:05:33

structure of the whole department.

Romana: 00:05:35

His assistant bringing the dinner because There was nowhere

Romana: 00:05:38

else we could go and eat.

Romana: 00:05:40

And then just talking about how is it going to influence the employees?

Romana: 00:05:45

What he should do to consider the individual needs?

Romana: 00:05:49

How he can support those that he values within the department?

Romana: 00:05:55

These kind of discussions were, that I enjoyed the most.

Romana: 00:05:58

There are plenty stories.

Romana: 00:05:59

I remember when the managers really took time and effort to come up with

Romana: 00:06:05

bespoke solutions that we were able to fit into the legal frame that

Romana: 00:06:11

fitted to the needs of the employees.

Romana: 00:06:14

And that was just amazing.

Romana: 00:06:16

Yeah.

Rob: 00:06:16

Okay.

Rob: 00:06:17

I'm trying to, understand what was your interest.

Rob: 00:06:21

For me, I would like that.

Rob: 00:06:22

It's like an intellectual puzzle.

Rob: 00:06:24

Or for me, I also look at people and I want to understand how people work.

Rob: 00:06:29

And so all of these kinds of things help me.

Rob: 00:06:31

So was it the outcome it had or the challenge of it, or,

Romana: 00:06:36

I think it's the human part of it.

Romana: 00:06:39

That was the most interesting.

Romana: 00:06:41

There were a situation that there are two examples I like to usually talk

Romana: 00:06:46

about one, but we were talking about an employee who came in, to me first

Romana: 00:06:53

handing in the termination letter when he wanted to leave the company and

Romana: 00:06:58

he didn't want to say the reasons.

Romana: 00:07:00

But through talking, we he told me very private reasons which,

Romana: 00:07:06

where that he actually fell in love with one of his colleagues.

Romana: 00:07:10

And since he was not able to see any other way out.

Romana: 00:07:14

He decided just to quit.

Romana: 00:07:16

This is not the part of the problem, but I understand the reasons, but

Romana: 00:07:21

I also understand that he needs to talk to his boss because maybe

Romana: 00:07:25

those reasons could be solved.

Romana: 00:07:26

So we made a mutual agreement.

Romana: 00:07:29

He's going to talk to the boss.

Romana: 00:07:31

And if he doesn't, that I have a two weeks period when I give

Romana: 00:07:34

him the time to think it through.

Romana: 00:07:36

And then I talk to the boss.

Romana: 00:07:38

He eventually did talk to his superior.

Romana: 00:07:41

I talked to him and we found a way to, send him for a foreign assignment

Romana: 00:07:47

for a prolonged period of time.

Romana: 00:07:49

It worked for the company.

Romana: 00:07:51

It worked for the department because they needed an expert abroad, and

Romana: 00:07:55

it worked for the person because he desperately wanted to solve a private

Romana: 00:08:02

situation and he saw no other way.

Romana: 00:08:05

Of course the solution is something that I enjoy, but the human part That

Romana: 00:08:10

you are really trying to come up with a solution that fits the person and

Romana: 00:08:15

the rest of the stakeholders, if you wish, was that was really interesting.

Rob: 00:08:20

That's really at the core of what I try to do with unifying.

Rob: 00:08:24

I think all of us have individual, and then we have to gather together

Rob: 00:08:28

and find a way to make it all work.

Rob: 00:08:30

I'm interested that you said it started with organizational psychology.

Rob: 00:08:34

Why organizational psychology?

Rob: 00:08:36

Because then has there been a path that you were on already

Rob: 00:08:40

that led you to choose that?

Romana: 00:08:42

Why organizational psychology?

Romana: 00:08:44

Maybe I will just now contradict to what you were saying, because

Romana: 00:08:48

I'm a very impatient person.

Romana: 00:08:50

I want to see the results.

Romana: 00:08:51

Okay.

Romana: 00:08:51

Thank you.

Romana: 00:08:51

That's why, because it's actually in organizations, although many changes

Romana: 00:08:56

take time, the results you can see the results or you can see the progress much

Romana: 00:09:03

faster, than in clinical psychology.

Romana: 00:09:06

So that, that's the result orientation that brought me to the companies.

Romana: 00:09:10

And of course, both of my parents worked in a corporation and there was

Romana: 00:09:15

the influence from their side also.

Romana: 00:09:17

So I could see the way how they worked and thrived in the organization.

Rob: 00:09:23

So when you were a little girl and you were watching your parents

Rob: 00:09:27

working in organizations, did you have a dream of what you wanted

Rob: 00:09:30

to be and what you wanted to do?

Romana: 00:09:32

That's a good question.

Romana: 00:09:33

Although I was watching my parents and One of the reasons I joined the corporations

Romana: 00:09:38

was actually the pattern I saw.

Romana: 00:09:40

I never wanted to come to the same corporation.

Romana: 00:09:43

There are three I would never ever.

Romana: 00:09:46

I thought I will never ever work for the same company as my parents did.

Romana: 00:09:51

I ended up working for the same company.

Romana: 00:09:53

For more than 10 years.

Romana: 00:09:55

Second, I will never ever, it was when I told myself that I will, I won't be a

Romana: 00:10:01

stay at home mom because with my first child, I'll thought, and there is actually

Romana: 00:10:06

a huge paternity leave in Czech Republic.

Romana: 00:10:09

So the agreement with my employer was that I will come back to work after two years.

Romana: 00:10:15

Which is quite normal in Czech Republic, or was back then, but I ended up

Romana: 00:10:20

staying at home for almost eight.

Romana: 00:10:22

With two of my kids and my husband being sent for a foreign assignment.

Romana: 00:10:27

And third was I will never ever become an entrepreneur.

Romana: 00:10:31

I felt safe and good in the corporation.

Romana: 00:10:34

So here I am.

Rob: 00:10:35

What's the next one?

Romana: 00:10:36

I'm actually sometimes asking the question, where am I

Romana: 00:10:40

saying to myself, I will never ever, because that may be the direction.

Romana: 00:10:44

But at the moment, I don't know, I think that the entrepreneurship

Romana: 00:10:48

is still a challenge big enough to stick with it right now.

Rob: 00:10:52

Yeah.

Rob: 00:10:52

Okay.

Rob: 00:10:53

When you were going through school, and then you decided to do psychology.

Rob: 00:10:56

What inspired you to that?

Rob: 00:10:58

Was it the human element?

Rob: 00:10:59

Did you have the plan to work in the, in corporations?

Romana: 00:11:02

I didn't know if there was a, that much of a plan.

Romana: 00:11:06

When you are 15, 18, I don't know if the idea of what you want to do is that clear.

Romana: 00:11:13

I think I was inclined always to work with people.

Romana: 00:11:16

As you said, I like to ask questions and I like to listen to what people

Romana: 00:11:21

are saying and usually, when I get something on my mind, I go for it.

Romana: 00:11:27

So I made the decision and then I just went for it.

Romana: 00:11:30

Although it took me three attempts and three years to

Romana: 00:11:34

actually enter the university.

Rob: 00:11:36

Okay.

Rob: 00:11:36

It was difficult to get into.

Romana: 00:11:38

They say it's difficult to get into and then it's.

Romana: 00:11:41

It's easier to thrive once you enter the university or the psychology department.

Rob: 00:11:47

Okay.

Rob: 00:11:48

You say that you've always liked to ask questions.

Rob: 00:11:50

Were you like that at school?

Romana: 00:11:51

I don't know.

Romana: 00:11:51

I was loud, that's what I remember, I was loud.

Romana: 00:11:55

My voice is just too loud.

Romana: 00:11:57

So I was, everyone heard when I was talking.

Romana: 00:12:01

So I guess that was part of asking the questions because I was not afraid.

Rob: 00:12:05

Okay.

Rob: 00:12:06

So that's something that underpins you actually.

Rob: 00:12:08

There's a quiet confidence, because you say I'm not afraid, but there's a quiet

Rob: 00:12:12

confidence that you don't seem afraid.

Rob: 00:12:13

You seem afraid willing to ask the difficult questions.

Rob: 00:12:16

You seem willing to make the jumps.

Rob: 00:12:19

So there seems to be a confidence that you have.

Romana: 00:12:22

I have no idea if that's the question or just a statement.

Rob: 00:12:26

It's a statement.

Rob: 00:12:27

It's just an observation, that's all.

Romana: 00:12:30

I like to try new things.

Romana: 00:12:32

And, I believe that the confidence comes just afterwards.

Rob: 00:12:36

Yeah.

Rob: 00:12:36

Often people are waiting for confidence before they try and you can't, you

Rob: 00:12:41

have to fail and you have to have the confidence and it's like anxiety.

Rob: 00:12:44

I think you have to do the thing to move past it.

Rob: 00:12:47

Otherwise you'll always be anxious about it.

Romana: 00:12:49

Yeah.

Romana: 00:12:50

You won't know until you try it.

Rob: 00:12:52

How did that move into coaching?

Romana: 00:12:54

It took me actually many years to move into the coaching.

Romana: 00:12:58

I had the idea of becoming an internal coach first.

Romana: 00:13:03

So I actually went through my first certification when I was still

Romana: 00:13:08

working for the corporation, but then I took eight years, break

Romana: 00:13:12

and honestly, I totally forgot.

Romana: 00:13:14

about the whole idea and plan.

Romana: 00:13:17

I was no longer in the corporation.

Romana: 00:13:19

And then I was an expat wife for quite a long time.

Romana: 00:13:24

I enjoyed the experience.

Romana: 00:13:26

I believe I made the most out of living abroad that I could, but for a portion

Romana: 00:13:33

of time, I struggled with the meaning.

Romana: 00:13:35

Taking care of the kids, but although I was coming up with different programs or

Romana: 00:13:43

how to fill up my time, it was not enough.

Romana: 00:13:46

There was no purpose behind it.

Romana: 00:13:48

It sounds silly, but it was mostly enjoying myself, but

Romana: 00:13:51

it was still not enough.

Romana: 00:13:52

So I struggled at the time.

Romana: 00:13:55

There is actually a funny story.

Romana: 00:13:56

It's part of it.

Romana: 00:13:57

My husband used to work with a coach.

Romana: 00:14:00

And one night my husband comes home and asks me a question.

Romana: 00:14:05

I was talking to my coach today and he asked me, what about your wife?

Romana: 00:14:09

How is she doing?

Romana: 00:14:11

You've been living abroad for quite a time.

Romana: 00:14:13

The coach said, from my experience the wives either go crazy and get divorced

Romana: 00:14:20

or they have to start doing something.

Romana: 00:14:22

So where is your wife at?

Romana: 00:14:24

My husband came home wondering, because he said, I never asked

Romana: 00:14:28

the question, so where are you?

Romana: 00:14:30

So what's the possibility?

Romana: 00:14:32

I actually said, and admitted to him for the first time that I'm struggling

Romana: 00:14:36

with the purpose and I started working with the coach and that led me to

Romana: 00:14:41

the idea that if I enjoy working with people, that I enjoy asking questions

Romana: 00:14:46

and listening to people, that there is actually a path that I had in my mind

Romana: 00:14:52

many years back, but never fulfilled.

Romana: 00:14:54

But still there was this idea, okay, but will you do it in a corporation?

Romana: 00:14:59

Will you come back to the corporation and become an

Romana: 00:15:01

individual coach and internal coach?

Romana: 00:15:05

Then in the end, I told myself If there is a time in life where I can try

Romana: 00:15:10

something different, it was that time.

Romana: 00:15:12

So I terminated my connection to the corporation I used

Romana: 00:15:16

to work with and went solo.

Romana: 00:15:19

And of course, part of that was that I I went through another certification

Romana: 00:15:24

just to refresh the coaching process.

Rob: 00:15:28

Yeah.

Rob: 00:15:28

It sounds like you already had a lot of the skills.

Rob: 00:15:32

Did the coaching training help or did you find that most of

Rob: 00:15:36

it you'd already picked up?

Romana: 00:15:38

I think that there are two main things.

Romana: 00:15:40

One is through the training, you always build your own awareness.

Romana: 00:15:44

So I would say I refreshed what I knew on a conscious level, but sometimes you

Romana: 00:15:50

really have to work on your subconscious.

Romana: 00:15:53

For instance, when you really are listening, it's not

Romana: 00:15:57

just about person is saying.

Romana: 00:16:01

It's also shutting up your own ideas and, questions that you want to ask, but

Romana: 00:16:08

may not fit what the person is saying.

Romana: 00:16:11

Also you have to listen more deeply on a level of what the person is

Romana: 00:16:14

just saying, but how the energy of what the person is saying is changing

Romana: 00:16:19

or what was really interesting.

Romana: 00:16:22

Something I didn't work with in the corporation is work with metaphors

Romana: 00:16:26

and how they carry the meaning, which comes back more to my background

Romana: 00:16:30

of psychology, but of course I didn't use it in the corporation.

Romana: 00:16:33

So that's something I had to learn or refresh.

Romana: 00:16:37

And then there is a process and the big part of the coaching

Romana: 00:16:41

is you trust the process.

Romana: 00:16:42

So that's also something that I had to relearn again, to get the confidence, to

Romana: 00:16:48

trust the process, that I will lead the client to the outcome he is looking for.

Rob: 00:16:53

When you're new doing something like that, you feel a lot of pressure.

Rob: 00:16:56

And I think it's a bit like leaders feel a pressure to impress.

Rob: 00:16:59

And later you realize it's less about you and to use a metaphor, it's like when

Rob: 00:17:04

we first learn to drive, we oversteer.

Rob: 00:17:06

Then you learn it doesn't take as much.

Rob: 00:17:09

So when you started coaching this, usually most of us start out and we

Rob: 00:17:13

don't really know who we're working with.

Rob: 00:17:15

And the whole coach thing is everyone needs a coach and

Rob: 00:17:18

you can be a coach to anyone.

Rob: 00:17:19

So what was your early steps like, and how did you then narrow down to leaders?

Romana: 00:17:24

Actually, that's the thing I always wanted the

Romana: 00:17:26

leaders that was a given.

Romana: 00:17:28

I want to work and I work with people who inspire me first.

Romana: 00:17:33

And that's a thing that I need in my life inspiration.

Romana: 00:17:36

So the choice was given.

Romana: 00:17:39

And I know that people who are in leadership positions and who

Romana: 00:17:42

are inspiring, they struggle.

Romana: 00:17:45

I've seen it firsthand.

Romana: 00:17:46

When I was working in the corporation, they just don't know yet what I usually

Romana: 00:17:51

see up front, that there is more that they can achieve or trust themselves.

Romana: 00:17:57

There is a bigger path they can walk.

Rob: 00:17:59

The more that you see, that they don't see yet, what is that?

Romana: 00:18:03

I believe it's part of deep listening.

Romana: 00:18:06

It's not about what they say.

Romana: 00:18:08

Sometimes of course, there are hints in the conversations,

Romana: 00:18:12

but it's more how they show up.

Romana: 00:18:14

What metaphors they use.

Romana: 00:18:16

And how they actually react.

Romana: 00:18:19

How deeply they are able to think and feel about the issues

Romana: 00:18:23

they bring to the session.

Rob: 00:18:25

Okay.

Rob: 00:18:26

I often think like a lot of old stories are very true.

Rob: 00:18:29

I think of the Wizard of Oz, they all go on the yellow brick road and they all

Rob: 00:18:34

think that they're missing something and the thing that they think that they're

Rob: 00:18:36

missing is often the thing that they find.

Rob: 00:18:40

Yeah.

Rob: 00:18:40

That they always had.

Rob: 00:18:41

Yeah.

Rob: 00:18:42

So I see that journey.

Rob: 00:18:44

Is it them overcoming their fears?

Rob: 00:18:46

Is it them finding things that they didn't think they knew?

Rob: 00:18:51

Or can you see any other patterns?

Romana: 00:18:53

I believe there is a pattern of trust.

Romana: 00:18:56

Once you are a leader, and I believe most of the people I work with have

Romana: 00:19:01

always been leaders, just different positions, or no matter the role, you

Romana: 00:19:06

always stand out of the crowd and at certain point or at certain situation,

Romana: 00:19:13

you feel alone because of the differences.

Romana: 00:19:16

The higher the position, or the bigger your ambitions are, the feeling of

Romana: 00:19:23

loneliness can grow and then you start to lose trust in people because

Romana: 00:19:29

you are trying to protect yourself.

Romana: 00:19:30

Then it's easy to even starting to trust yourself because you don't

Romana: 00:19:35

have the feedback that we as humans need through the social interactions.

Romana: 00:19:40

So I believe that part of the journey is that I, as a coach, trust them first,

Romana: 00:19:47

so they are able to start trust themself and the others as well on the journey.

Rob: 00:19:53

So a lot of times that you've talked about trust.

Rob: 00:19:55

Don't you

Romana: 00:19:56

see it in the companies or don't you see it in the

Romana: 00:19:59

relationships that you work with?

Rob: 00:20:01

Yeah trust is huge.

Rob: 00:20:02

What I haven't heard before is someone talk about the trust as much as you.

Rob: 00:20:08

So it's coming through, as something core to you, that sense of trust.

Rob: 00:20:13

I see it.

Rob: 00:20:14

And I know it's needed.

Rob: 00:20:15

But I talk about it more as a mechanistic thing, probably.

Romana: 00:20:19

In what way?

Rob: 00:20:20

In that trust is something we need.

Rob: 00:20:23

We need to trust ourselves and we need to trust others.

Rob: 00:20:25

So I suppose for me, it's one of those things that's largely unconscious,

Rob: 00:20:29

that people don't recognize that's the currency that they're looking for.

Rob: 00:20:33

I think all of life comes down to a few core currencies.

Rob: 00:20:36

And everything anyone does is for a handful of reasons.

Rob: 00:20:40

It's for trust, it's for love, it's for respect, it's for

Rob: 00:20:43

recognition, it's for control.

Rob: 00:20:46

One of these things.

Rob: 00:20:47

So for me, there are all of these things into play.

Rob: 00:20:51

And so whenever anyone acts, I'm looking at what are they trying to do?

Rob: 00:20:55

But I've rarely spoken to people who are as conscious and explicitly saying it.

Rob: 00:21:02

Whereas normally trust is something people don't even aren't aware

Rob: 00:21:06

of, or they don't speak of.

Rob: 00:21:08

So for me relationships are the vehicle of interactions.

Rob: 00:21:12

They're the sum of all our interactions, and the measure and the purpose of a

Rob: 00:21:17

relationship is to build that trust.

Rob: 00:21:19

But I don't explicitly talk about that trust because it's something

Rob: 00:21:23

that most people are unaware of.

Rob: 00:21:25

It's not the thing that they're looking for.

Romana: 00:21:28

I also deliver trainings on leadership skills.

Romana: 00:21:31

I was recently delivering a workshop and we talked about trust as a part of

Romana: 00:21:37

building relationship and networks and how to leverage networks within the company.

Romana: 00:21:43

We came to discuss the trust equation, where most people, as you said it

Romana: 00:21:49

mechanistically are able to identify if they believe that the person is competent.

Romana: 00:21:57

That's what they are able to identify.

Romana: 00:21:59

They are able to identify if they feel safe when the person is talking to

Romana: 00:22:05

them, and they also are able to identify if they believe that what the person

Romana: 00:22:10

is saying is actually going to do.

Romana: 00:22:12

There is a promise behind his word.

Romana: 00:22:14

But a part of the trust equation, and a major one, most people are not consciously

Romana: 00:22:21

aware, but when we talk about it, they become aware of it, is if the person with

Romana: 00:22:27

whom we are talking is self oriented only and doing things only for his own benefit.

Romana: 00:22:33

Or if he's taking in consideration the other person as well, because

Romana: 00:22:38

this element actually can ruin the whole other three parts.

Romana: 00:22:43

And that's something that at least when I was discussing it with the leaders,

Romana: 00:22:47

they said, we never realized it.

Romana: 00:22:49

It's a major part of trust.

Rob: 00:22:51

Yeah, definitely.

Rob: 00:22:53

So you had integrity, competence, and basically care that's the kind

Rob: 00:22:56

of thing that we get at a gut level, but not necessarily an awareness

Rob: 00:23:01

level when you talked about the, the heart the gut and the mind.

Romana: 00:23:04

Yeah, exactly.

Romana: 00:23:06

We feel there is something wrong or we know that we can trust the

Romana: 00:23:10

person, but we are not aware of what.

Romana: 00:23:12

So first the awareness and when you mentioned that the three brains, we

Romana: 00:23:17

can actually locate it in the body, but even within the trust equation

Romana: 00:23:22

we can identify in the individual elements to bring it to awareness.

Rob: 00:23:27

In coaching.

Rob: 00:23:28

I'm sure you've gone through your values.

Rob: 00:23:30

What are the values that drive what you do?

Romana: 00:23:33

They say you better show it than say it so if I would ask you first

Romana: 00:23:39

What how do I show up and then I will tell you if those are the values or not.

Rob: 00:23:44

So I'm gonna go with trust because That is something that comes through.

Rob: 00:23:49

Obviously we can have the same value, but we express it differently.

Rob: 00:23:51

There's something about being together.

Rob: 00:23:53

So whether it's connection or togetherness there's something about the way that

Rob: 00:23:57

you talk about organizations it's the collective, but there's meaning to

Rob: 00:24:03

so purpose I'm going to put, there's something about being proactive, so I, I

Rob: 00:24:07

would say proactive, it might not be the right word, but it's that kind of thing.

Rob: 00:24:11

And communication.

Rob: 00:24:12

And I would put something along the lines of integrity and maybe loyalty.

Rob: 00:24:17

Okay, now you can

Romana: 00:24:19

tell me.

Romana: 00:24:21

Okay, you have mentioned much more.

Romana: 00:24:23

I usually talk about my three most important ones, but,

Romana: 00:24:27

thank you for the assessment.

Romana: 00:24:29

It means a lot.

Romana: 00:24:30

I usually talk about curiosity courage and connection.

Romana: 00:24:34

These are my most important values.

Romana: 00:24:37

Of course, there are many more.

Romana: 00:24:39

But these are usually ones I try to steer my decisions.

Rob: 00:24:43

The three C's.

Rob: 00:24:44

And I only got one of them.

Romana: 00:24:45

You can find those in all the words you said or

Romana: 00:24:49

at least I can see it there.

Rob: 00:24:50

Okay.

Rob: 00:24:51

So trust is one of the big issues in the transformations you work with.

Rob: 00:24:56

What are maybe some of the others?

Romana: 00:24:58

I believe that the trust is the foundation.

Romana: 00:25:01

What might be the others?

Romana: 00:25:02

I believe it's a bias towards action.

Romana: 00:25:05

Most people I work with are not afraid to, act and then take

Romana: 00:25:11

learnings from what they did.

Romana: 00:25:13

What else?

Romana: 00:25:14

I believe that a big part is a deep need for meaning and that all

Romana: 00:25:21

their action are actually heading towards the meaning and the purpose.

Romana: 00:25:25

Since I mostly work with senior leaders, they often come to the point.

Romana: 00:25:31

I'd like to talk about the midlife, but not everyone actually likes the word.

Romana: 00:25:36

What I noticed, I have no issue with the age but, they entered the phase

Romana: 00:25:42

when whatever purpose or actions they have worked for them until now are

Romana: 00:25:47

no longer enough, or not serving the purpose, or they no longer make sense.

Romana: 00:25:53

So that's something, it has always been there, but they lost it.

Romana: 00:25:58

So part of the coaching is that we try to rediscover it.

Rob: 00:26:02

I'm not sure if you're familiar, but David Brooks has written a book on that.

Rob: 00:26:05

He calls it the second mountain.

Rob: 00:26:07

So I have,

Romana: 00:26:08

I know the book, I actually have it in my Kind

Romana: 00:26:11

of, but I haven't read it yet.

Romana: 00:26:12

Yeah, I know.

Romana: 00:26:13

It's

Rob: 00:26:14

basically about that.

Rob: 00:26:15

You might find it interesting.

Rob: 00:26:16

Okay.

Rob: 00:26:17

So now we see what the transformation is.

Rob: 00:26:19

I'm just wondering what are the problems that a leader is facing

Rob: 00:26:22

at the point of working with you?

Rob: 00:26:24

And what does it look like afterwards?

Romana: 00:26:26

If I will move from the personal, maybe area and then look at the

Romana: 00:26:32

corporative or maybe the organizational area a little bit more than these are

Romana: 00:26:38

usually issues of how to work with your own time and energy within the

Romana: 00:26:44

company or within your work life.

Romana: 00:26:46

How do you set boundaries with your colleagues.

Romana: 00:26:50

We often talk about how do you get feedback and delegate activities.

Romana: 00:26:56

That's what we talk about a lot.

Romana: 00:26:58

Actually we often talk about how to get things done on the daily basis, how to

Romana: 00:27:05

prioritize, how to express and communicate what I really want as a leader.

Romana: 00:27:13

In the end when you are asking about what's the outcome, the leaders are able

Romana: 00:27:16

to express with ease what they really want from employees, they are able to give them

Romana: 00:27:24

feedback that's not hurtful, but still expresses the facts and expectations.

Romana: 00:27:30

And they are able to prioritize their own schedule, their own needs.

Romana: 00:27:39

In a sense, most of the leaders I work with need more time and space

Romana: 00:27:45

for strategy or visions, but they are not able to find it themselves.

Romana: 00:27:50

So that's what we create together, which also means you have to trust your team

Romana: 00:27:57

more and delegate more stuff or use coaching principles to lead them to

Romana: 00:28:03

solutions, not to give them answers.

Romana: 00:28:06

So that's also a part of the results.

Romana: 00:28:08

And with that, yes, as I mentioned, there are actually few of my

Romana: 00:28:12

coaching clients who say, one of my goals is to have an empty schedule.

Romana: 00:28:17

Of course it doesn't mean that they will have nothing on

Romana: 00:28:19

their agenda, but that means.

Romana: 00:28:22

I want to really do stuff I want to do, not what others want me to do.

Rob: 00:28:28

Doing the important rather than the urgent.

Romana: 00:28:29

Yeah.

Romana: 00:28:30

Yeah.

Rob: 00:28:31

Okay.

Rob: 00:28:31

So what I see then is basically a lot of leaders reach their limits of

Rob: 00:28:36

what they're able to do, which shows up in the organizational problems.

Rob: 00:28:40

And in the process of working you help them develop more stable

Rob: 00:28:44

secure foundations so that the same problems they're able to deal with

Rob: 00:28:49

much more elegantly and so they're able to reach the next level.

Rob: 00:28:52

It's like people reach the end of their level of their operating system.

Rob: 00:28:56

You help them to get up ready to reach a different type of challenge.

Romana: 00:29:01

There is the stairs towards mastery.

Romana: 00:29:03

So yes, we are just going one stair or one step at a time.

Romana: 00:29:07

I have a deep trust and believe that most of the leaders I would

Romana: 00:29:13

love to say in general, but at least those that I work with, there are

Romana: 00:29:17

many leaders who are very capable.

Romana: 00:29:20

They know how to do stuff.

Romana: 00:29:22

And so it's not about the how, as you said, it's to go

Romana: 00:29:26

one step farther and grow.

Romana: 00:29:28

Because they have all the answers.

Romana: 00:29:30

So it's not about me telling them how to run the company.

Romana: 00:29:34

They know it.

Romana: 00:29:35

They just don't have the space, energy, time, the skills.

Romana: 00:29:39

Sometimes of course, it's about the communicational skills that they

Romana: 00:29:42

just need to develop on a new level.

Rob: 00:29:45

I see three journeys relationships, leadership, and public speaking.

Rob: 00:29:48

Each of them we step into something and there's no way that you can prepare.

Rob: 00:29:53

But through your challenges, you'll grow, and it's your openness really

Rob: 00:29:57

to being able to take on feedback and change and adapt who you are around it.

Rob: 00:30:03

Say a leader is starting out, and they haven't yet reached that level, what

Rob: 00:30:07

principles or tips or advice would you give them, for their journey?

Rob: 00:30:12

Say someone that wants to really develop and be the best leader they

Rob: 00:30:15

can for some meaningful purpose.

Rob: 00:30:17

From your experience of seeing other leaders, would you say are

Rob: 00:30:20

the challenges or the, skills or principles that they need to take on?

Romana: 00:30:25

I would probably say, you need to know where you are going.

Romana: 00:30:29

And I will just explain what I mean by that.

Romana: 00:30:31

We often learn and we are taught that it means you need to know your goal and then

Romana: 00:30:37

you will find ways how to reach the goal.

Romana: 00:30:39

But what I mean by that is something that Stephen Covey said, start

Romana: 00:30:44

with the end in mind, in a sense.

Romana: 00:30:46

Know who you want to be as a person and then try to fit the

Romana: 00:30:50

person in the shoes of the role.

Romana: 00:30:52

Because when I talk with leaders, They all want to know, and if I ask them, okay,

Romana: 00:30:58

what kind of a leader do you want to be, or who is a go to, inspiration for you?

Romana: 00:31:05

They actually are all quite able to say what it means.

Romana: 00:31:09

But when we go deeper, and I ask them, okay, and how does

Romana: 00:31:13

it show up in daily life?

Romana: 00:31:15

It takes a bit of a time to define it.

Romana: 00:31:18

Again, most people know it, but they never made the step to look at the behavior.

Romana: 00:31:24

So if I would give an advice, it would be start with the end in mind, knowing who

Romana: 00:31:31

do you want to be as a person in the role?

Romana: 00:31:34

And what does it mean in your behavior?

Romana: 00:31:38

How are you going to show up daily?

Romana: 00:31:40

That is something that you can actually learn, practice, make mistakes and repeat.

Rob: 00:31:46

I suppose when I think about that in my experience and observation of

Rob: 00:31:49

people there's a certain age where you have that awareness because like the

Rob: 00:31:53

20s are about trying things out and until you've tried them out, your, you

Rob: 00:31:57

don't really know who you want to be.

Rob: 00:32:00

But that's deep and something that not a lot of people talk about as much,

Rob: 00:32:04

but in the end a lot of leaders will try to emulate someone and they'll try

Rob: 00:32:10

to emulate someone who has a different set of skills and personality to them.

Rob: 00:32:14

And then they'll feel like a second best.

Romana: 00:32:16

There is nothing wrong about take it as an inspiration.

Romana: 00:32:19

But you can't emulate.

Romana: 00:32:20

You will always be the second best.

Romana: 00:32:23

And most often people won't trust you that it's you.

Romana: 00:32:27

So I'm often telling, people when I teach them those things during the training.

Romana: 00:32:32

Part of your personality is something that it may not be perfect.

Romana: 00:32:37

You may be a boss who comes every morning and takes him

Romana: 00:32:42

an hour to get into the mood.

Romana: 00:32:44

And that's okay.

Romana: 00:32:45

You don't have to smile at everyone Monday morning if it's

Romana: 00:32:48

that, if that's not your thing.

Romana: 00:32:51

It's just good to tell others.

Romana: 00:32:53

Hey guys, I need an hour to adapt to the work rhythm again.

Romana: 00:32:56

And through time, people just learn you are the kind of a boss.

Romana: 00:33:00

If you leave him alone for the first hour every morning, he's marvelous.

Romana: 00:33:04

That's okay.

Rob: 00:33:05

Which all comes down to accepting yourself.

Rob: 00:33:08

And then, in order to accept, you need to trust yourself.

Romana: 00:33:11

And also tell others, this is me.

Romana: 00:33:14

Yes, I'm an early bird.

Romana: 00:33:16

Sorry, guys.

Romana: 00:33:17

I come to office at five, but that doesn't mean you also have to show up.

Romana: 00:33:21

I'd rather if you leave me alone.

Rob: 00:33:23

Okay.

Rob: 00:33:24

Now as someone who is great at asking questions, I'm just going to ask one more

Rob: 00:33:28

question is what should I have asked that you would have asked that I've missed?

Romana: 00:33:33

Oh, that's a good question.

Romana: 00:33:34

You could have, I don't know if you could have asked, there is a

Romana: 00:33:37

thing that I love to talk about, but, I'm a passionate singer.

Romana: 00:33:41

I sing in a car only, so that's, that, that's my personal singer part.

Rob: 00:33:47

Okay.

Rob: 00:33:47

Ah, okay.

Rob: 00:33:47

The

Romana: 00:33:47

song I love to, to sing is.

Romana: 00:33:51

Either John Bonjovi, it's my life and I know it's old school and it

Romana: 00:33:57

is, I don't know, but it perfectly describes yeah, I wanna do it my way.

Romana: 00:34:03

It's my life.

Romana: 00:34:04

I can trust myself and the others, and we only have one life, or at

Romana: 00:34:09

least what I know of or remember, of.

Rob: 00:34:12

So w why do you only, sing in the car?

Romana: 00:34:15

I don't think I actually I thought.

Romana: 00:34:17

And I think I used to have a voice good enough for singing in public.

Romana: 00:34:22

I think it deteriorates it and I never practice it I never

Romana: 00:34:26

learned how to properly sing.

Romana: 00:34:28

So I don't actually think it's a very good experience listening to

Romana: 00:34:31

me singing, but I still love it.

Rob: 00:34:33

So is that an issue of trust?

Romana: 00:34:35

Yes, of course.

Rob: 00:34:37

Okay, that's a perfect way to, to wrap up.

Rob: 00:34:40

It's.

Rob: 00:34:40

It's interesting that the very thing that we talk most about to others

Rob: 00:34:45

is the thing, is very, there's a, an example of our, of it in ourselves.

Romana: 00:34:50

Of course, we are the, our very first clients, right?

Rob: 00:34:54

Okay.

Rob: 00:34:55

Thank you for your time.

Rob: 00:34:56

It's been fascinating to, to learn more about you.

Rob: 00:34:58

It's lovely

Romana: 00:34:58

talking to you.

Romana: 00:34:59

Thank you.